interesting way to justify your intolerance. lol you bash people in this area for being intolerant, but you're the same way.

I've tolerated them all my life.They've caused me to have an a-hole for a president for 8 years.I'm not looking to pass laws against them,but I do wish they could form their own conservative country of NASCARTONIA. They say you should dream big.That's a big dream.I don't like them.Look at what one did yesterday.Makes my country look like a bunch of dogs live here.I would say I do tolerate them.They are the ones trying to pass laws against peoples rights to do stuff.The most I've done against them is say I don't think this HEE HAW bunch should have the right to torture(and they are hypocrite Christians for wanting to torture to begin with.) I know it's a mainly conservative bunch on here,but encouraging the Pres to keep torture an option is not Kool.

One question that has been answered
but is not widely publicized is:

Does waterboarding actually yield good quick information?

And the answer appears to be in some cases
it works very well in extracting information quickly.

So President Scuds sits in the Oval Office:

Pres. Scuds, we have information about a terrorist
attack in LA. It looks like a big network and we dont
know where the hell they are in LA, but its going to
be real bad as it involves a dirty nuke. We do have
suspects in the planning in custody. The attack appears
to be imminent. We think waterboarding will possibly work
on one of these guys. We need info NOW. And this guy has
the goods. He knows. It might work... We have tried other
quick techniques on this guy and its not working.

Does this situation arise often? NO. But if it does,
do you want to leave the option open?

So do you want to say we will prohibit this practice unless
we see a dire need to do it, or just flat out prohibit KNOWING
that it IS effective at getting vital information quickly IN SOME
cases?

And of course we prohibit it completely because we
know it will be abused by Bush and his Cowboy military...
And because we cant set proper criteria when it should
be used.
They are holding a gun to your head, tell the
Cops to back off and let them kill you...take one
for the country and ethics.

i also don't like the fact that some want to take away a persons rights. hell, i live in a dry county, and am unable to wager my own hard earned money online if i wanted to. i'm a live and let live sort of person, which makes me a freak in many peoples' eyes around here. something came up about homosexuality the other day at work. who knows what one lady at work thinks of me now, as i disagreed with her contention that upbringing is the cause, followed by a persons choice to be that way. i told her i thought you're born that way. no doubt she has now consigned me to the burning fires of hell now. doesn't bother me tho, i don't care what she thinks--it's funny tho, she can quote verse but seems to have forgotten 'judge not' and 'he who is without sin'.

For arguements sake, how do you know what christ said? Your believing it because someone wrote about it at least 80 years later after he did. None of these accounts were written done right then....

i've always thought that torture may well yield what you want the person to tell you, not necessarily the truth. to this day you have people who give false confessions due to hours upon hours of questioning by the police. why wouldn't this be different?
i don't know what the cia uses vs the military. i'd hate to see limits placed that shouldn't be placed by congress, but whether that's the case here, i don't know. i don't want this country to become exactly the type of thing it is supposedly fighting.

that's true too. what do they say, winners write history? christianity has certainly been a smashing success.
like they said on south park, the bible is a guide you can use. but i wouldn't take it as gospel....oh, that's punny.:o

And while christ maybe never spoke on it, but it is written about in the new testament. I can give you several passages if need be...

"religon makes me want to fart" ..
ted nugent

i've heard that before....

dont follow zig sorry...?

I work with a woman just like that.

Then there appears to be considerable evidence that the church leaders "eliminated" several original books of the Bible which elevated women to a place of equality in the church; wasn't it the Diet of Worms in around 1066 (may have the date wrong) that finally "decided" that yes...women also had a soul same as men? My favorite of course remains King James I dictating to his scribes that "chasaph" translated from the original Hebrew to "witch" instead of "poisoner"...that set of a bloody chain of events which lasted for centuries....but maybe James wasn't a paranoid schizophrenic but a messenger of god???

a co worker can quote bible verse to support whatever point she is trying to make, it's amazing really. so i was thinking about her, and others like her, when you put up about the passages.

i think it's funny in a non-humorous way that she goes to church twice on sunday, goes to bible class, back to church on wednesday...but she's a hater. i don't get it.

Somer i think you have to draw a line between old time catholics and modern day non-catholics. Throughout history the church did as they wanted without regard for anyone or anything else. If the pope wanted something he took it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think that modern day christians as well as most catholics are more interested now in finding god then following the pope. It't not just witches that were persecuted it was academia, dissidents.. etc.

you know, i mentioned ol king james the other day to my daughter. we were talking about the coworker i mentioned above, and the conversation we had had that day. i asked kelly 'what do you think that woman would say/do if she found out that king james, who was behind that version of the bible she refers to, was a homosexual?'

and yes, several books have been left out, including one about judas.

as for the diet of worms, mid 1500's. . william of normandy invaded england in 1066. i do love my history.


-edit-diet took place in 1521--charles the v presiding

zig is correct 1521 was the year

My information about waterboarding
being very accurate and quick, in
SOME cases, came from an interview
with a military intelligence officer on
NPR (always ultra-liberal supposedly)
It was backed up by some Pyschologist
from a University they had on.

I cant see taking it completely
off the table (pun, no..)
when it MIGHT be very effective in
getting good information quickly in
some cases. The potential for abuse
is always present. The Geneva convention
has it on the no list. But we live in a world
where a few zealots can kill very large
numbers of innocent people very quickly.
Its not a stone throwing world anymore.

Cool...I knew it was sometime in the Middle Ages but couldn't remember when...too many of those Diet thingys!

Skippy, I understand your point but the point I'm making is that James deliberately changed the meaning to suit his paranoia...if you doubt me, read his book, "Deamonologie" in which he details his fear of witches, demons etc.
This is one example of the Biblical text being altered by man, yet today, many so-called "fundamentalists" want to use every word in the book to degrade folks like me. Yes, times have changed but the "one way or else hell" mentality hasn't!

reminds me of the joke about the priest who dies, and upon entering heaven, rushes immediately to the 'official' bible kept upstairs.
scanning pages feverishly, at last he finds the word he was looking for.'' ah ha, he shouts in anger, it was originally celebrate!!

LOL! Another of my interests is the religion's demonization of sex!

Somer i was not disagreeing with you, but the king james version of the bible is not the only version. It's not like he just came up with his own translation, in fact he borrowed about 95% of the content from another version. While i understand that some people use the bible to demean woman i see it diffrently entirely. After all, Mary was the first to see christ, because she was faithful in being at his tomb. He choose to appear to her. To me this would be a direct indication that christ didn't appear to side with one sex over the other. But again this is only my interpretation.

As for doubting you, of course i don't. I don't choose to participate in wicca or witchcraft or buddism, islam or the like but i wont degrade anyone that does. You have the freedom to worship however and whomever you want as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. You are going to find nut jobs everywhere of all faiths that hate all people not directly aligned with them.

Absolutely Skippy, I come not to praise Caesar but to bury him...in other words, I have absolutely nothing against Christianity (was one for 54 years afterall), it...like all other religions that believe in a supreme being, is a path to the devine. Rather, I point out that many (certainly not all) of the faithful have an arrogance brought about by the "one way" concept that results in degrading non-believers. Christ may have honored women but the church didn't...and not just in early "canon" (ie: Joan of Arc).

Mine also believes a woman should be subservient to a man ( that'll be the day).

Bible interpretations on Derby Trail....You've gotta love it.

LOL! Where do you find this stuff?

don't know where, but glad he does. puts some hilarious stuff up here. i still laugh every time i think of the one he put up with the dugger family.

oh, well that's just fantastic. tell me the bible wasn't written by men only. sorry honey, since you've got an innie, rather than an outtie--you're a lesser person-says so right here.

google images with help from my heathen mind.

The adoring little Asian Girl fan club
was a wonderful little jab at this poster.

One wonders how long it takes to find
the images that are so appropriate.

You want the right to act like a dog in rare cases? Right? I don't want to be like them at all.If you torture ,then they've succeeded in making you like them.This is why we have so much trouble now(too many people think it's o.k. to cheat,steal,and lie once in a while.)Multiply that by 300 million people,and you have got the reason for a lot of our present day problems.Take, for instance, the guy who (I guess) threw a puppy off a cliff(I didn't watch it,so you tell me.) Is it o.k. if he just does that one time? In a rare case? There are a lot of people with sick tendencies.Do you really want to give out the message that it's o.k. to do evil stuff once in a while? To torture once in a while? To kill a cat once in a while? Huh? I don't. Hey we have very good communication systems.One of the best ways to stop this scum is to put their evil on full display as often as possible,and let them know what we really do think of them.We don't do that.We fear being called anti-Islamic,or racist,or whatever.That's what is the problem.If you constantly show young people the stuff these people do to innocent people,then this scum will be very interested.They are very interested in how they are viewed around the world.Show them for what they are.Put it on MTV.Constantly show THIS SCUM ACTING LIKE SCUM.They won't like it.They don't have the communication systems here to compete with us.All they can do is stop acting like scum.We are good at entertainment systems,and communuication systems.We beat them at this.Start using it.Stop being scared about upsetting Moslems.That doesn't work.Show everybody what Moslems are doing to innocent people,and let Moslems change their own people.They are only going to change if they have a huge microscope showing them exactly as they are. That will be much more useful than torture,but we can't complain about them being scum if we allow GEEDUBBYA etc. to act like scum.

I get it.The Old Testament,and some of the NEW TESTAMENT has page after page of hate.Who ,exactly ,do you think would be attracted to it? ....Yea...haters.You bring up homosexuality.Well,if somebody (on their own-without religion involved) hates gay people,then don't you think the BIBLE would be one of their top choices of reading material? Gee,what do ya know.They got an organization with a special book that backs up what I already think is wrong. How cool a club..See? I'm not saying everyone who goes to church does it to back up the hate they naturally have,but a lot do.Why else would somebody really enjoy reading the OLD TESTAMENT?
They like what it says.They agree with it.

Perhaps you could print your own version of the bible. Lots of pictures of course!:D

So you are saying you would not use
it, even if it had the chance of saving your
city from being blown up? And then you would
be able to explain to all the families that you
could have, but did not...
And they would say," but it might have worked" and
you would lie and say "it had no chance to help save
lives"?

A very difficult decision had to be made in WWII
about Japan. It is still being debated today.
I happen to think it was horrible but a correct
decision. I dont think anybody WANTED to do
this, the felt they had to. There is a difference.

Scuds we all make decisions in our lives that
go against our ethical values. We all do. We
rationalize and huff and puff but we all do.
We fight the temptation but it happens.
You know you have. You have acted like
a dog in rare cases and so have I. Not that
we have killed anyone or tortured anyone,
but we have all crossed the line in some way
meaningful way to us (maybe not to anyone else).
I am not Jesus and I dont think you are.

So cut the high and mighty.

If this technique can, under unique circumstances,
give the country a means of saving the lives of
innocent people right now, I cant see taking it completely off
the table. Hopefully we research ways to come up
with other techniques. If what I heard on NPR is all wrong,
then fine. But it was clearly stated that this technique
can in certain cases give accurate information quickly.
Not like other techniques. This is what I understand.

There aren't many more lefties on this board, or anywhere else than me. And not to be melodramatic, but I've really struggled with this waterboard/torture thing quite a bit and it pains me to side with anything GDubya supports, but it's hard not to understand the need for some type of method of protection for the greater good. Whether it's Hiroshama or waterboarding, I think at some point you have to close your eyes and cover your ears and just trust that it's neccessary. Now, there is a very slippery slope that this administration ( cough, cough) has followed and I hate to give them an inch, etc..but as others have posted, the emotional knee jerk reaction to this that you and I have has to be looked at further

I'm a bigger fan of the electric cords attached to the gonads or the head in the vice but I guess I'm just violent from listening to rap lyrics when I was younger