Still all smoke and mirrors...makes for entertaining reading but doesn't have much to do with the Israeli reality...the people of Israel have a right to defend themselves...as I often quote in other circumstances, "in the end, we have only those rights which we can defend...only those rights!" The Garden of Eden doesn't exist...never did! There are no perfect solutions, no fairytale endings...no place on earth without evil lurking...has nothing to do with the situation at hand! Folks make decisions, both good and bad...if you choose to allow pigs in your house, it will smell like pig crap! Support terrorism and you can't complain when an Israeli missile comes through the kitchen window...you may feel you've been wronged and perhaps you have...but you'll still be scattered over the countryside.

Well spoken Somer! As for others posters, as far I'm concerned...Our first mistake was giving a DAMN what other countries in the world think! And the second was currying favor and influence(with cash) to many countries who didn't know how to utilize money we supplied(for generations).

What in the world does a man's sexual orientation have to do with what he thinks about taxes, governmental authority and states' rights? Oh, right, to the Republicans, EVERYTHING. Oy.

What do you consider a "leftist?" I also can't find any corroboration to him having been a reporter for the NYTimes. What years did he work there? Please give me the dates, along with a list of what you consider to be "leftist" attributes.

Sullivan was ... and perhaps still is ... a writer/reporter for the New York Times Magazine and the New York Times Book Review.

As I clearly stated ... his sexual practices have nothing to do with his primarily leftist political beliefs ... but he trumpets them wherever his work appears ... so they are relevant when discussing his background as a writer and analyst.

In any case ... Andrew is not a "conservative" or "right-winger."

None of which is relevant to the main question of what your point was in providing that unverifiable, unattributed anecdote.

What are Sullivan's most recent articles for the Times Magazine and the Book Review? I think you have the NEW YORK Times confused with the LONDON Times. The NEW YORK Times, you see, publishes in New York. The LONDON Times publishes in LONDON. Sullivan is a regular contributer to the LONDON Times. But I can see how you'd get them confused-- New York... London... what's the difference, really?

Still awaiting your list of what you think are lefty platforms.

It's not justification for what is going on, but here is a blogger post from a student in Beirut about the support for Hezbollah and maybe some of the reasons why:

Date: 2006-07-18 13:33
Subject: Some insight, perhaps
Security: Public

It occured to me that a lot of people may have no idea why the Shia in the south support the HA so strongly.
The HA, being far from stupid, spent years being the benefactors of the population of the south that was otherwise largely cut off from the rest of the country. They built homes for them, organised schooling, hospitalised the needy, brought them spiritual support... At the same time, the only thing those simple people (way too illiterate and monolinguistic to have access to many sources of information) ever saw from Israel were bombs falling on their heads and events such as the Qana massacre (for the unaware – a UN compound of the Fijian detachment full of Shia refugees was targeted and bombed some years ago, making the entire world reel).

So exactly how do we explain to these people that the HA who fed, treated, schooled and sheltered them are the bad guys, and that Israel is not evil incarnate? As you can see, they've been told being bombed makes them heroes – and they believe it.

Brainwash is the new Black Plague.
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The link to the blog is: http://cedarseed.livejournal.com/

Perhaps you should also make your snide remarks to The New Republic ... which also seems to think that Andrew works for the New York Times Magazine and the New York Times Book Review. ...

http://www.tnr.com/showBio.mhtml?pid=30

Ho-hum ... another unverifiable, unidentified, undocumented bit of "Did you know that Hitler built the autobahns and fed stray dogs" terrorist propaganda.

LOL... Do you babble on like this at the poker table? Your inability to begin to comprehend the motives of your adversaries leaves you likely to lose at cards, conflict and life.

"Contributing to" is not the same as being a "reporter" for, which is what I believe you said Sullivan was. Many, many writers have contributed on occasion to the Times Magazine and the Book Review-- the numbers include numerous writers of all different political persuasions. It's not the same as writing for, or being a "reporter." Under your conditions, one could say Karl Rove reports for TIME Magazine, since a contribution from him appeared in the issue on Teddy Roosevelt.

Still "Waiting for Lefty" platforms...

Nice bit of squirming and sidestepping ... but you were busted nonetheless.

I've seen Sullivan's by-line on New York Times articles on the internet ... I haven't deigned to touch the actual propaganda rag for the past 20 years ... so please "forgive" me if I didn't know which section of the rag the electronic articles were lifted from.

And I have no idea what you're waiting for, Ms. Odets ... please explain.

BB, you're constantly jumping on people for unsubstantiated links, so until you can give me hard evidence that Sullivan was a regular staff writer for the NYTimes, and not an occasional contributor, then I have to apply your own standards on unsubstantiated things and assume you made it up. Whining that you think you saw the articles on the internet but that you don't read the Times so you don't know which "section" the articles were from doesn't count as solid backup. I need to know the years he was a writer/reporter, as you put it. Contributor is just contributor. Not writer or reporter, as you state.

Here is the pertinent line from an earlier email, to answer your other question:

"What do you consider a "leftist?" I also can't find any corroboration to him having been a reporter for the NYTimes. What years did he work there? Please give me the dates, along with a list of what you consider to be "leftist" attributes."

So, actually, that's two questions you haven't answered yet. When was Sullivan on staff at the NYTimes and what do you consider a "leftist?"

I still think you're confusing the London Times with the NY Times. Sullivan does write a regular column for the London Times.

Two things define a leftist...

1. A leftist believes that government is the solver of economic and social problems ... and that it does so by confiscating and redistributing wealth ... which leftists assume is an existential substance ... not something which has to be created.

2. A leftist is someone who deludes herself ... and attempts to distract and bemuse others ... by obsessing over minutiae which are completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed ... and is always successful with the former ... and never successful with the latter.

Well, finally you are seeing some clarity.

It is so very disappointing to see the Israelis trying yet again to oppress the Lebanese into submission for the stated purpose of "stability" in southern Lebanon. I actually hope the UN, as well as a multi-nation peacekeeping force, takes the stability of Lebanon more serious this time. After all, the Israelis did this very same thing in 1982. And failed. And Israell did this very same thing in 2000. And, of course, Israel failed. Hopefully they will not fail yet again, though failure seems likely.

It probably will take some action against TelAviv to move public opinion in Israel that last needed step toward seeking peace.

It's been 25 years since Israel started the transformation of Beirut from being the "Paris of the Middle East" into looking like an ordinary TelAviv slum.

My first reaction was "No ... not even the Syrians and Palestinians could be that dumb!" ... but ...

... then I realized that the strings are being pulled by Persians from 1,000 miles away ... and they could care less what happens to the Arabs ... so ...

... yeah, you're right ... the idea of the Lebanese, Palestinians and Syrians being used ... once again ... as cannon fodder is hardly far-fetched.

First you sound as moronic as ever. And, without knowing it, you've stumbled (finally) in the right direction without knowing it.

The Israeli "End-Game" here will be to play nice with the Syrians. Always has been. As you know, Syria is calling the shots here.

The "scuttlebut" you hear is the sound of your head scuttling further up your butt. You do not hear anything worth a sh1t. Really now.

What you're hoping for is just not going to happen. You're just an old man sitting in his chair watching CNN proclaiming to the world and pretending to yourself that you have Omert's ear. Uh huh.

And, of course, you're wrong. I'm not an America hater. Just hate the foolishness that you and other war-mongering oppresssors profess as the correct solution. Many, many billions of people see the world different than you. And you cannot accept that they may be right.

Israel blew the Lebanon issue in 1982 and again in 2000. I suppose that is also my fault? Israel, along with the U.S. have really f***rd up in Lebanon., leaving the fledgling democracy of Lebanon up for grabs. The U.S. had a war to lose and the Israelis needed to get back to those ever-scary, sling-shot toting Palestinians.

You just don't get it. Never will, probably never have. But knowledgeable, non-robotic people see this for what it is.

Again, the deal to be made is with the Syrians. And it will be made. Get used to it.

Shocking ... unpleasant ... horrific ...

... but necessary.

How can I become part of that minyan? Have yarmulke ... will travel.

You continue to follow the fool Dixie Porter as a puppy follows a child.

Dixie is, as always, wrong. Rice will be in the Middle East by early tomorrow... just as I predicted. She is not likely to be carrying any nuclear weapons but rather a list of tangible issues to speak to the Syrians about (through and with the Jordanians, Saudis and Egyptians, of course).

Along with those losing ther lives in Haifa, you should be praying for these Arab leaders for the guidance and wsdom they will use to bring this to its end.

Save the yarmulke for another day.

I am clearly on the side of Israel as demonstrated by many of my posts. I dont think they have done everything properly, but they are a moral democracy.

And I occasionally find myself on the side of someone such as the bold one. And I wonder what the hell, have a gotten completely wrong? Such shallow thinking. I need to go back and rethink this thing. Kinda like when the KKK backs Republicans, or animal rights groups let infected lab rats lose- vote Democratic... please dont back, we really dont want your vote.

Just want to be isolated from primitive thought patterns.

There aren't too many folks further to the left on this board than me...yet I support a lot of what BB says. Israel is a moral democracy and we MUST support her continued existence. Folks who commit acts of terrorism are terrorists and must be destroyed...not reasoned with or compromised with...destroyed! Evil exists and must be fought...we will never defeat evil but we can and must defeat those who do evil...sure, others will take their place and those that take ours must defeat them...there is a balance to all the universes and evil constantly attempts to destroy that balance...it must be maintained!

We have family that live in Haifa and Tel-Aviv.One of the rockets that hit Haifa yesterday was about 1/3 of a mile from there apartment.When my wife saw the footage she immediately recognized the area.We got hold of them on the phone and asked how they were and they said fine and next asked about our family like nothing was going on.I don't thinkwe could ever be that casual about what is happening there if it was going on here.One of there sons who just had there second child has been recalled.The family that lives in Herzilia Petuach near Tel-Aviv has a son who is in special forces as a naval seal.His father was a Colonel in the army.the only thing i can say is if there is ever a quiet time there you must see that place.Jewish,Christian it doesen't matter.It's a remarkable place.

OK then I am dissappointed. I agree with someone who just does not think. Makes up his mind based on preconceived biases and never touches evidence that does not fit the mold. I cant stand these types. Disappointed...

My clothes are dirty but my hands are clean...words of Bob Dylan.
Don't judge a book by it's cover...I have no idea who first said that.
People who don't think can't possibly reach meaningful conclusions and BB reaches meaningful conclusions therefore...
Beware of snap judgement based on internet posts...70-80% of human communication is non-verbal, the net is 100% verbal (written).
The truth has many vehicles, there is the messenger and there is the message...we must never confuse them!

Somer have you seen the sites he posts? I have sampled 4. They are all absolutely horrible with a huge agenda. I try and read the Wall Street Journal, the NY Times, listen to the experts on all sides on C-span... I try to get a smattering from everywhere. Call my Uncle who was a career diplomat (not some political hack contributor to a presidency). His sites... holy cow.

[quote=somerfrost]There aren't too many folks further to the left on this board than me...yet I support a lot of what BB says. Israel is a moral democracy and we MUST support her continued existence. Folks who commit acts of terrorism are terrorists and must be destroyed...not reasoned with or compromised with...destroyed! Evil exists and must be fought...we will never defeat evil but we can and must defeat those who do evil...sure, others will take their place and those that take ours must defeat them...there is a balance to all the universes and evil constantly attempts to destroy that balance...it must be maintained![/QUOTE]

This is about the funniest thing i have read on here. Its like you stopped just short of saying "anakin, only the sith deal in absolutes". lol

You think you stand to the left and use terms like "destroy", "evil" and even "terrorist" in the same mangled diatribe?

You seem to like cliches. How about this one: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Think about that for one second.

Think about all sides of the issue before you start spouting off about "balance to the universe" and try just for a second to understand why the universe is just so "unbalanced" right now.

I have made only one recommendation for outside reading ... the books and opinion columns of Dr. Thomas Sowell ... a 72-year-old professor at Stanford University ... who is universally recognized as a brilliant scholar and researcher ... even by socialists who don't share his beliefs in individual freedom.

If you think Dr. Sowell's writings are "absolutely horrible" ... there's nothing to do but pity you.

And I won't get into my personal academic qualifications and professional achievements ... because there's no way for anyone to verify them ... but if you knew them ... you'd be ashamed of some of the ignorant things you've written.

As Dean Martin used to say to Jerry Lewis ... "Look ashamed!"

That's utter nonsense in this context.

The terrorists are in no way fighting for freedom ... they hate Jews and openly profess an obsessive desire to kill all of them. And they readily kill any of their co-religionists who disagree with their goals and methods.

On the other hand ... the members of the U.S. military have always been freedom fighters ... defeating brutal, murderous tyrannies and establishing free democracies in their place.

Think about that ... for many seconds.

[quote=dalakhani]I doubt that you are so advanced in your philosophy as to make fun of mine and I certainly don't have to present my credentials to someone I don't even know. I've lived my life by that which I believe and have never been bashful of presenting my opinions on any subject. A couple points...I KNOW that I am to the left of most here, I don't just think it. My thoughts were clearly stated, they were neither mangled or bitter, simply my point of view. You are welcome to your's but attempting to devalue mine is a poor substitute to presenting a retort based on whatever your opinion may be for debate. Also, my response was geared specifically to Pgardn, a poster that I know and respect and have had many discussions with in the past, not some lurker that I honestly don't know or care about. Your world view is apparently different than mine....cool! We can debate the merits of our ideology, but starting out with an attempt to lecture me from some perceived loft of intellectual superiority is well...a waste of your time!

Nice response.

Congratulations! You are definitely a graduate of OxyViagra University with the Drug Czar Rush (fitting name) the dean.

Can the bolded statement be any further from the truth?

You mean those "free democracies" in the Phillipines, Iran, Iraq, South Viet Nam, ETC, ETC, ETC that the US implemented as pupits during the 20th century? You mean those leaders that the US installed that were known as Marcos, the shah, Saddam and Diem? Those "free democracies" that were "defeating" brutal murderous tryrannies? LOL

[quote=somerfrost]Before we can begin ANYTHING, you have to go back to Kindergarten and learn LEFT from RIGHT.

pgardn, I have a question for you. Do you feel it is possible for a person to use their own mind, absent of pre-conceived biases, considering many different viewpoints, and to then adopt the very same world-view as BB? Or are you implying that anyone that shares this same worldview does not think and simply parrots what other people say?

You've never sensed any whiff of an agenda with the NY Times or C-Span?
Most of the internet sites that I have seen are all agenda driven and do not really try to hide it, liberal, conservative, left or right. The agenda is right in your face whether you like it or not. The trouble I have with places like NY Times, C-Span, Public TV, they're theoretically supposed to be agenda free.

My point is simply that he would never change the way he views the world, even if the evidence points the other way. In this world you have to be flexible. My background is in Science; I guess thats why I cannot understand people like him. If you have a notion that there is a clear reason some phenomena happens the way it does, and the evidence shows quite clearly that your reasoning is flawed, you CHANGE your views. BB searches for evidence that backs his reasoning. Thats backwards. I believe one has to look at everything and come up with generalizations for such incrediby tough topics that we have attempted to take on.

Nothing is totally agenda free. Noticed you left the Wall Street Journal (not a tinge business oriented) out? The SPEAKERS on C-span have their agenda but you listen and wade through what they are trying to say (some are just attempting to sell books). A lot of these guys spend their lives trying to understand one very particular part of the world. They ATTEMPT to understand what is really happening in a situation. Because if they dont, the likelyhood that the conclusion they might reach will be very wrong. You have to try and listen to people that are academics that are REALLY trying to understand a situation. Not tyring to make a situation fit a theme and ignoring other evidence that is to the contrary. The NY times is clearly liberal, but has some of the best foreign reporting I have ever read. Ever. You just dont throw out a source that has so many ways to get at a story, so many people in thick of events... Not just read some article from a guy who has never been out of his house like BB puts up.

I like reports that deal mainly with observations and leave the commentary out. Then I like to listen to the experts take the raw data and observations and try and make some sense out of it.
And my God with the Thomas Sowell. This man experienced success in a very tough situation. He is clearly gifted and thinks everyone can achieve exactly what he did. Thats tainted stuff. And BB ultimately has to know this, as he has never answered how blacks found themselves in a much more dire financial straight (on the whole) BEFORE welfare.

I get tired of saying on the whole because BB will find one black man who was a millionaire, and use him as the norm. And thats twisting data. ANd that is disingenious and wrong. Kind of like what he has done with Thomas Sowell. Because this guy is black and fits neatly into BBs worldview, he is a God. Thats a dangerous way to go about trying to understand what is REALLY going on.

[quote=dalakhani]Obviously, you must feel you lack the mental tools necessary for substantive debate and therefore resort to making belittling personal comments simply because I don't share your point of view (assuming you actually have one, you certainly have done little except attack the views of others thus far). I have no time for folks like you, I have been around too long to be baited unless I care to be and when I read your posts...to quote Willow Rosenberg, "bored now!" I will refrain from posting further in response to your personal comments.

[quote=somerfrost]Im glad that you will refrain if all im going to get is regurgitated riff raff about the "balance of the universe" and "destroying evil". LOL

More utter nonsense.

You haven't the slightest idea who I am ... or how I reach my conclusions.

When others were linking to loopy-loony leftist websites ... I recommended that they take a look at what Dr. Sowell had to say as well.

For your information ... I earned a Ph.D in Economics in the very same year that Dr. Sowell did (1968) ... even though he's about 12 years older than I ... so where did you get the coc-kamamie notion that he did anything to shape my views?

Dr. Sowell and I just happen to share the same belief in individual freedom ... which we reached completely independent of one another.

Your pomposity is greatly disproportionate to your knowledge.

[quote=dalakhani]It's very difficult to know who is making these posts ... dalakhani or somerfrost.

Someone hit a wrong button somewhere ... and the confusion persists. Will one of you please start from scratch ... so the rest of us can follow the thread?