The "they" I was referring to was the CHRB that mandated this stuff and the tracks that didn't fight hard against it but instead just gave in and rushed to put this stuff in without the proper studies being done.

The voice of reason

I would like to go on record...I am NOT Honu

the good news is i just saved money on my car insurance...........

You have left another player out of the equation.
The owner to help put on the show. The vast majority of
which lose money. So I guess the WE also takes into account
the owners.
So the picture is a little bigger.

Any track where In Summation can beat Idiot Proof is certainly nothing like dirt.

You are not on a soap box. Thank you for telling it like it is despite cheap shots to you that have nothing to do with the Santa Anita surface. Which is the topic of this thread.

As if we needed more proof.

I don't play California tracks and don't know a lot about them but I do know Del Mar was up 3-4% in handle this year and Hollywood had good results as well. So bettors, overall, seem to be ok with the track surfaces. At least it seems that way to me.

The situation is very unfortunate. They did not cut any corners. They spent $11 million installing this track. They tried to do it right but it just didn't work out. In all likelihood, they are going to have to install a new surface right after the meet ends.

We are very nervous about running anything on the dirt at SA this meet. We're going to be running most of our horses on the grass. I don't know if these horses will even like the grass but the most imprtant thing is to come out of the race in one piece. The turf course at SA is excellent. It is very safe.

It will be interesting to see what's going to happen this weekend. They are going to seal the track. We are expecting about 4 inches of rain. That track is not really designed to be sealed. One of my trainers told me that he would not be shocked if they end up cancelling the races this weekend. Nobody really knows for sure what that track will be like with all the water sitting on top of it after they seal it. I certainly would not want to be running a horse this weekend. We have one that is supposed to run on Monday but in all likelihood we are going to scratch. It's just not worth taking a chance of an injury.

By the way, if they do put in a new surface after the meet ends, they will not have to rip out the track entirely. It appears that the drainage system at the bottom does work. It is just the composition of the track that is causing the drainage problems. So they will simply have to put a new surface on top. That is why the new job will cost about $6 million rather than the $11 million that it would cost to rip out everything and put in a brand new track.

Pyramid, cash rolls down hill.....

1) Bettor bets into pool
2) Track takes cut for operating expenses, purses
3) Track pays owner for win
4) Owner pays Trainer
5) Trainer pays employees

It is a pyramid.

Without bettors, tracks get nothing, without tracks, the trainers have no jobs, without trainers, their employees have no jobs.

What an unfortunate thread. You two are both way better than this thread. Honu cares about the horses she works with. BTW stresses the importance of bettors to the game itself. These are not contradictory positions, no matter how hard you and others in this thread try to make it look like they are. Focussing on single throwaway lines ("deserve what they get" or "we foot the bill for the entire show") distorts the discussion. It's like you are each in an argument with someone who isn't there.

--Dunbar

How about owner pays for horse that actually runs?
There would be nothing to bet on if not for owners
buying the competitors. I feel compelled to make sure
the betting public understands this.

The owners and betting public are the cash cows, not just the betting public.

You make a valid point, to a certain extent, but we do foot the bill. I am all for backstretch worker's rights, and wish they were all treated well, but that doesn't mean I will allow someone who works on the backstretch to insist that their job does not depend on bettors. That is simply not true. Without us wagering there is no show.....period.

I think it would be unfortunate if people felt that the backstretch community does not care a great deal about the bettors. Many are acutely aware that without us there's no game to play. Honu is not aware of this. She claims that there would be racing on phantom estates and she would be employed by some Lord of the Manor in his pursuit to best his fellow bon vivants.

I don't agree.

Your not getting the point. These owners would have NO REASON to run a horse if there wasn't the public FUNDING these purses.

The PURSES are the start of the process, without the purse, there is no horse racing. Owners/trainers/jockeys are tentacles to horse racing. Not a negative thing, but without the purses, which are funded by bettors, the rest wouldn't be there

I am guessing it was an emotionally charged response. She cares, and that is as important a point as the one you two are bickering over. I see both your points, although you are expressing/communicating yours better...but lets keep the gloves up a bit.

By the way Mr. BTW, wouldnt you be out of a job without the bettors? (just trying to bring you two closer together here)

Yes, this is the bottom line.

In the city I live there was a 2 small tracks in which there was no wagering. Now the owners had wagers with each other. Parking was free, you could just go watch horses run. And it was quite fun. When Texas legalized racing these venues of course disappeared. Bill all footed by owners. Of course if you wanted to bet another person at the track you could. No track outtake.

I realize this is small potatoes. But it existed and thrived. You got a show for free.

Man , I do get that gamblers fuel the sport havent I said that ? But much more than you and much more than me the owners and horses fuel it and without a track that functions properly its hard to prepare the horses to compete at their best so you can wager on them. The people my boss trains for are not in need of the purse money to stay in the game , if they were they wouldnt go spend 20 million or more a year on racing because I dont believe they ever get a return on that investment .
And you better get a grip with the fact that NO ONE is thinking about you when they lead a horse over for a race , Im sorry if this hurts your feelings but it is what it is , its all about the horse and hitting the wire in front .

See my other post.
Live and free.
And it was fun.

My dad lost money God bless him.

You see, you are still carrying on a one-sided argument. You are making statements like "we do foot the bill" and "Honu is not aware of this." Excuse me?

Honu wrote this earlier in the thread: "I know that gambling is what fuels most of the sport...". So what is she not aware of? She went on to add, "... but let me tell you something , if they just raced for a trophy and bragging rights in the Kentucky Derby there would still be horses running in it ." I think that is correct. There wouldn't be much other racing, but there would probably still be a Triple Crown. I don't think Honu ever suggested that the sport would be anything like it is today without the bettors.

I don't think Honu ever stated that she would still have a job if betting disappeared from the sport. But you are suggesting she did say that.

I'm not taking sides in this. You are both guilty of personal attacks and putting words in the mouth of the other during this thread.

--Dunbar

In all ways.

This is why I believe that everyone that works within the industry is in it together.

Far be for me to jump into the middle of a perfectly good pissing match....but if you take a re-look at post 6 of this thread it does seem highly likely that KG was referring to the CHRB... and not the horsemen

I can assure you that Nick Zito thinks about this. As for others? I don't know for sure....but I know that Nick does.

Merry Christmas FFACE

what is the excuse for Idiot Proof getting beat by Barbeque Eddie? I don't think its the surface because he beat Barbeque Eddie on the same surface in the Ancient Title.

Agreed...Idiot Proof is a paper tiger.

There is no doubt that Idiot Proof isn't the same horse on the synthetics that he is on the dirt and that horses like In Summation who busted out on the dirt and had to go the turf are now moving up big time cause of the synthetic surfaces. You aren't going to tell me a horse that just ran 2nd in the BC Sprint as a 3yo should be losing to the likes of In Summation and Barbeque Eddie on a surface that is a dirt replacement, are you?

i don't think Proof was 100% cranked here, the race set up extremely well for In Summation. Idiot Proof has won a graded stakes over a synethic, I think, it was at Hollywood

Santa Anita, the Ancient Title over Greg's Gold and the immortal BBQ Eddie. I'm not saying the horse can't run on synthetics at all. All I'm saying is the gap between him and In Summation and BBQ is nothing on the cushion and would be open lengths on the dirt.

Idiot Proof is over rated. He has two wins on synthetic and 3 on dirt.
I just don't see where he should be rated as some kind of dirt monster brought low by the surface. Maybe he isn't as good on synthetic as dirt, so what?

In Summation is more of a bust on turf, not dirt. His turf record is 6 starts, 1 win, 3 places. His dirt record is 9 starts, 4 wins, 1 place. His synthetic record is 4 starts, 3 wins, 1 place. He is actually shown to be quite versatile on any surface.

The BC sprint is a toss in my mind, and not indicative of much. Midnite Lute has also confirmed that.

Of course he does he bets! So let me get this right Zito is saddling Sun King for a 10f grade one that he knows isn't his best distance and he is concerned that the bettors are being well represented by his training methods.. What a guy.. Or better yet maybe this is one of he dicussions with LaPenta..Bob War Pass is really ready to go I think the bettors are right making him a 3/5 favorite..

You know I admire and respect Zito but I think the horses best interest and his owners best interest have to out weigh the gamblers.

I don't know if it was that he wasn't cranked up. He probably just didn't come out of the BC Sprint very well. When you run on a sloppy, sealed track like that, there is probably only a 50% chance at best that you will come out of the race without some type of minor injury. When you run your horse in the slop, you are basically playing russian roulette.

Midnight Lute is another horse who probably did not come out of the race 100%. He didn't look like the same horse in the Cigar Mile. His BC sprint win was certainly no fluke. That was not the first time he ran a race like that. He ran just as huge in the Forego.

I'm telling you, when you run in the slop you are very lucky if you come out of the race in one piece.

They did consider it. The Cusion Track at Hollywood Park drains beautifully. It can rain an inch and you can't even tell that it rained. The track looks perfect. They put in a very similar drainage system at Santa Anita. The problem is that they used a slightly different type of composition for the surface and that is what has caused the problems. They used a different type of sand and some of the other ingredients were slightly different.

They obviously did not do proper testing or they would have realized that the composition they planned to install does not drain properly.

for some reason they used more sand, and it clogged up the drainage system.
pretty dumb that they weren't more careful.