I dont think the outcry will be much less. The fact is, if this had happened in the Tropical Park Derby or some pseudo obscure race, this would be less of a story. But, it happened before a LIVE nation wide audience with a huge crown in attendence and it happened to the sports newest golden boy. The story had faded recently because he was doing so well. However, now since his condition has slipped, you can see it bubbling back to the surface. For example, getting dressed this AM, it was mentioned in the same lead on Good Morning America as the Israel-Hezbolla conflict.

The media has its own agenda, and sensational stories get opening/top of the fold coverage. Sadly, this story has it all. Meteoric rise, powerful victory, terrible sadness and now maybe a tragic ending. If this horse cannot make it, it's top or just off the top news for a few days. And that may produce a deluge of bad PR that this sport just cannot deal with.

Regardless, Barbaro...I've cashed some tickets in my day that had some long odds on them. Right now, you are one of them and I hope I get to cash this one too. God bless.

It's " clear"?

Honestly, if Polytrack really is the " answer " for racing, it will be people like you that will prevent it from happening.

there will be zero loss of fan base / wagering $$$ because of barbaro...... the people who will never watch another horse race again are the folks who come outta the woodwork once a year for the derby.



p.s i am not brushing aside the heartbreaking barbaro tragedy...... he was my favorite horse since 1987 and the preakness was a punch in the gut for me.

I appreciate your wise post suffolk...horse racing is moving ahead to synthetics, thank God. there are always obstructionists with vested interests that are afraid of change so horse racing will eventually overcome those as well. in the mean time, these tragedies continue...but let's cash this ticket...well said friend.

I agree 100%.

This article is pretty much what you can expect here on in.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...s/15033159.htm


BY the way, I would like to see additional fan base too. Not just old guys at the OTB everyday. Yes, I realize they aren't going anywhere.

randall, you are late tonight........no summer school for you this year:confused:

Im not even sure you lose the wood work people...the fact is, America loves a winner and if the Derby winner has some kind of compelling story, or dramatic victory, they are immediately ushered in as America's Darling animal for five or six weeks.

Regardless of how Barbaro turns out, next year, 18 or 20 3 year old will launch from the gate at Churchill Downs and become the "next big thing" when they win it. Its just as likely when they win, they become a horse like Funny Cide, Afleet Alex or Smarty Jones. A fun, popular, easy to root for animal. America lives for that stuff and falls in love with that.

I'm not a wood worker, I love the game, every day of the year. But, like Alysheba says, this is just a kick in the gut. One that really hurts.

Is that a shot or a joke? I'm laughing.

No actually I had to go in the last 3 days for curriculum work. No summer school for me, unless you consider studying the ponies work. I need the summer to be ready for September....Saratoga just a few weeks away.

The article eloquently sums up where we are at this stage of the game. A very unacceptable place to be with a whole lot of room for improvement.

tx for posting it.

no, no shot bro...... my uncle has been teaching high school here in so cal forever, so i know when summer school starts plus i thought you live in the east:rolleyes:

I was just kidding sheba. Yeah I'm in Jersey but I don't teach summer school....Maybe at some point in the future, but not yet.

Agree with Alysheba (who shares one of my all-time favorite horses). In fact, I'll go one further. Regardless of what happens to Barbaro from here out, the result will be a net increase in horseracing's fan base. Racing hasn't had this kind of exposure in decades, and much of it has been on the positive aspects of the care and love the stars receive. If Barbaro were to be put down tomorrow, his death would be a 1-2 day story whose impact was much softened by the great effort that went into saving him.

The bottom line is that year-to-year, horseracing is barely on the radar of even avid sportsfans. I doubt if 1% of the people at a World Series game or a Super Bowl would recognize the name Ghostzapper. And fewer still would recognize St Liam. So much for our last two HOY's. Of course, those already in the game DO recognize those names. But those in the game see breakdowns on a regular basis. In the current environment, a story like Barbaro's, where compassion and heart are the main ingredients, will probably have a (small) net positive impact on horseracing.

--Dunbar

Is this dude serious?

Jumping in late.....

Yes, this may be 15 minutes and out. That doesn't mean everything in the long term, though.

Ruffian was 15 minutes and out, too. But not among those who paid attention and cared.

And she's come back in notice, stronger than ever. It just took awhile.

I would suspect most all here are closet animal and horse lovers, whether they would admit it, or not. Even the pure "action" crowd, of which I am occasionally one.

I'm not a card carrying PETA member, but I sure as heck want good treatment of all animals whenever possible.

Thoroughbreds love to run. I've seen them perk up in the paddock when some get the late realization jolt of the job they've got to do....and want to do.

And, I've seen 'em prance and dance after a race with a "look at me" attitude.... looking into the stretch trackside fans after a 6th place finish.

All that said, I still hold the starter and Pimlico and maybe the television network liable for the decision to put Barbaro back in the gate so quickly after he broke through.

I won't let that one die.

you won't let that die? an incident that had nothing to do with his subsequent injury? why is it you won't let it go? i guess it has to do with someone wanting an explanation as to why something occurred, freak accident not being good enough. richardson said the gate had nothing to do with barbaro taking a bad step and breaking down, why isn't that good enough for you?

BINGO BINGO BINGO...

It's the people that INSIST upon breeding to unsound horses (and they pay quite the fee for it too) that are causing these kinds of problems. Thoroughbreds are more fragile than they used to be and IMO it's because they are inbred all to hell with generations of unsound, poorly conformed horses. It's no wonder...

It is an interesting thread, but I wouldn't go putting the horse in the ground yet. This one is a fighter.

Great idea ...

... let's repave and re-ceiling The Big Dig with polytrack ...

... and rename it The Big Sumitas.

There's not a shred of evidence for that.

Ruffian's death was immediately followed by the astounding exploits of Forego, Seattle Slew, Affirmed/Alydar, and Spectacular Bid. The late 1970's were the Glory Days for thoroughbred racing.

Historical footnote ...

The great champion Sword Dancer broke through the gate three times in his career ... and went on to win all three of those races ... and retired perfectly sound after 39 starts.

Unless a horse is actually injured in the process ... breaking through the gate means absolutely nothing.

For me, I accept that he wasn't injured in the gate like that, but I DO believe they should have taken a little more time in evaluating the horse before throwing him back in the gate like that. JMO. I think it was mere coincidence that he broke down the second time out of the gate, but they should have checked him more thoroughly because if they had, there wouldn't be as much controversy regarding it...

Very astute observation.

he WAS checked out!!

"The stewards always ask me to look at them (when they break through the gate)," said Zipf, a state veterinarian since 1965 and chief veterinarian for the last 20 years.

"I went through the stall he was in and followed him back around. Once he was gathered up (by an outrider) and turned around, the first thing I looked for was head trauma or abrasions or cuts. I then walked behind him as he trotted back to make sure, leg-wise that there was no problem. I could see nothing that would insult his performance; saw no problems with his head or legs. I'm certain there was nothing that would predispose to the injury that occurred in the race."

Zipf has heard the speculation that Barbaro's injury may have occurred in the gate and feels it is important for the racing public to know safeguards were taken. "We want people to know the circumstances," he said, "so we can eliminate speculation that isn't warranted. I don't want there to be any gray areas about what we do."

that's from bloodhorse. also read elsewhere the vet said it may have appeared to tv viewers that he was rushed back, but that wasn't the case. he checked him out just like any other horse who breaks thru.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite
World War III has started... and I think that'll get a lot more coverage.

Ruffian and Go For Wand also happened on national TV ... to much bigger audiences ... and they had zero short-term and long-term impact.

The Barbaro story? It'll be debated here forever. To the general public ... it'll be fifteen minutes ... and out.


Yeeah, a far out dude. what planet is he from ?

Like I said, I thought he should have been checked more THOROUGHLY. That is my opinion. And like I said before, I DO NOT think that his breakthrough the first time caused the accident. I can understand why some people would be led to think that though.

if there is no connection between his breaking thru the gate and than his injury, why the need to be checked more thoroughly? how thoroughly? if they followed standard practice, why is there still something wrong with what they did? i'm sorry if you think i'm hounding you, but i just don't get the whole thing.

Cajun is saying that some people are redboarding the issue ... going back and saying that the gate breakthrough was connected to the ankle injury.

If the track vet and starter crew had spent more than 30 seconds ... say 60 seconds ... examining Barbaro ... maybe these nutcase redboarders would have less to say ... maybe.

The vet did a normal examination ... but Cajun is saying because of the high visibility of the situation ... maybe the exam could have been extra-normal ... just to vitiate post-race conspiracy theories.

but you can't judge what happened THEN (the gate and subsequent check out by the vet) by what we know happened after. it's a shame that some will go back and point at that incident as the pivotal moment. esp since it isn't.
and yes, much like pearl harbor 'historians' who say by using all the info collected AFTER the bombing, and knowing the japanese did indeed bomb us and destroy much of our fleet, and by using tremendous HIND sight that we 'SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL ALONG' there will be those who say that the gate crew/pimlico/magna rushed the job....but they'll still be incorrect.

Precisely.

The Barbaro tragedy and the Arlington scandal are exposing this game for the real problems that exist. That is the welfare of the horse does not matter when it comes to the business of the tracks.

And this is just not acceptable and must be stopped.

Horse racing from the birth of a horse to the death of a horse is not very humane. The good horses are taken care, but are treated like prisoners. Go to any breeding farm and you see a horse in a stall that is like 10x10. The horse it let out for sex and maybe 1 hour of exercise a day in the pasture. The horse is treated like a prisoner. The racing aspect is even worse, you pump the horse full of drugs, barely feed it, put a person on its back and whip it so it can cross the finish line 1st. Horse racing isnt for the horse, it is for a human's pleasure. Everyone on this board love horses and there is no disputing that. However, would some of us still love the horses if there wasnt racing involved. Would we even care about horses if someone didnt introduce us to horse wagering? For me the answer is yes. I struggle with this all the time. If I love something, I want the best for them. I think horses love to race and compete. I really believe there is an inate characteristic in horses to compete. But, I don't think horses appreciate having their testicles cut off, being whipped, being drugged and only eating the amount that keeps them best fit. I would love to see the day where whips are out-lawed in horse racing, I would love to see the day where horses can roam freely in the pasture instead of being locked up in a small stall. Take the money and gambling out of horse racing and we would see how many people trule love horses.

just wondering if you could explain how it's the tracks fault that barbaro took a bad step?

i follow horse racing because i love horses. i can count on one hand the amount of times i've gone to see live racing and put bets down. yeah, the sport could use a few changes, it wouldn't break my heart to never see a whip in a jocks hand again. i think drugs are overused and abused. on the other hand, these horses are actually pampered and petted, and receive daily exercise and the best care. they outlive by decades their counterparts in the wild. many of them live in better housing than most adults! horses aren't fed 'just enough' to keep them fit. they get top notch feed and hay morning, noon, night and the middle of the night.

Sumitas,
You and I go way back. I like you.
You have knowledge about breeding that others dream of having.
I also don't like the break downs...not the least.
Hey, I know some people that watch NASCAR just waiting for a crash. To some people, it gives them something. To me it's very sad.
As far as Barbaro is concerned, in my humble opinion, it wasn't the track or lack of vet check. It was a bad step. Lots will say, we shoulda, coulda...
but that doesn't address the reality of the "now".
As far as Arlington, there is an ongoing investigation. There's also a good article at the bottom of the Bloodhorse page. Worth reading.
No owners or trainers want to see their horses run hurt.
Yes, horse racing is a business. I don't see a connect between Barbaro and Arlington.
Although some things are unacceptable, like with all things, there is risk.
There really ARE people looking into ways to prevent tragedies.
Most of those that I know in the business get no joy from watching a crash.
They DO have the best interests of their horses first and foremost.
When something bad happens, everyone is sad.
When something good happens, well, the risks are forgotten, and smiles abound. That's racing. It's like asking a bettor if he remembers a day of bad bets or a day when he scored big.
Just my two pennies worth.
Still like you.
DTS

Eurobounce, your points on cruelty are well taken, but I think maybe you're a little off the mark in terms of feeding and use of whips and turn-out. Thoroughbreds can't really be left out all day because they'll wear themselves out-- if they spend the day racing each other along the fences of their pastures (wasn't it said even into his 20s Man O' War would still try to race the young 'uns?) they'll have nothing left for the races.

Horses of any profession have to have their diets monitored-- horses will happily eat themselves to death if given the chance. They aren't stupid; they evolved into plains-roaming animals that subsisted on a diet of very few calories, so they had to eat all day long. Just because they now have high-calorie, commercially produced feed doesn't break all those millenia of conditioning to eat as much as they can whenever they can (actually, I think people have some of the same issues-- I don't think the urge to overeat is as much emotional as it is evolutionary, which makes it much harder to overcome!). And whips can be punishment, yes, but judiciously used, they are encouragement-- a reminder to keep focused and now it's time to go go go! They also can get a horse to steer rapidly away from a bad situation. I'm purely a pleasure rider and I NEVER go out without a crop, even if I don't use it. And I'm sure not racing anybody, especially on poky old Bach (long story-- my morning ride today...).

But you're right; overuse of the whip is mean and unnecessary and I think there could be more rules against excessive whip use. And honestly, I think one of the best things racing could do is to cut back the racing schedule-- give the horses several months off where they CAN run around all day and graze and just be horses. Overwork is no fun for anyone.

And no stallions at stud before the age of five! (Someone said that on the ESPN board and it was much lauded) If you have to keep them fit and sound until then I think people would breed for soundness and maybe they'd race longer.

Whipping?

Utter nonsense.

Some race horses ... who are the contenders in a race ... get a a few seconds worth of smacks every few weeks on average. Some get nothing at all.

I don't think a horse's rump or psyche are so fragile ... that they can't handle a very occasional dose of stinging. It beats the heck out of being attacked by a pack of wolves.

This thread should be featured on the next Oprah.

Good points Genuine,
I'll just add that the horses at the farm where mine live get fed four times a day if they're in the stall. Not all at once. One or two flakes distributed morning to night so they don't get sick. Plenty of fresh water, transition to greens (pasture)...too much will cause problems also, if they're not used to it.
As far as whipping...it's always a good idea to have one so that the horse knows who's in control. If they sense that you aren't...you'll get hurt quickly.
Same with a chain over the nose (or on the gums).
There are times that I've seen the whip used too much. No question.
If a horse is already dog tired, do you think hitting him twenty times is going to make him run any faster? Me neither.
As far as "breeding for soundness", that's something I've been trying to do for quite a while. It goes against the "current", blazing furlongs by 2yo's at the sales...but it's just the way I am. I'd rather have 'em last longer than make a fast buck. To each his own.
Good stables are not cruel. Actually, believe it or not, these folks show they care every day.
DTS

Horses of any profession have to have their diets monitored-- horses will happily eat themselves to death if given the chance. They aren't stupid; they evolved into plains-roaming animals that subsisted on a diet of very few calories, so they had to eat all day long. Just because they now have high-calorie, commercially produced feed doesn't break all those millenia of conditioning to eat as much as they can whenever they can (actually, I think people have some of the same issues-- I don't think the urge to overeat is as much emotional as it is evolutionary, which makes it much harder to overcome!). And whips can be punishment, yes, but judiciously used, they are encouragement-- a reminder to keep focused and now it's time to go go go! They also can get a horse to steer rapidly away from a bad situation. I'm purely a pleasure rider and I NEVER go out without a crop, even if I don't use it. And I'm sure not racing anybody, especially on poky old Bach (long story-- my morning ride today...).

Obviously you (EURO not Genuine) didn't see the photos and videos of Barbaro after the derby in his paddock eating grass. They let him be a horse.

To your question, would I love horses if there was no racing? abso-fukking-lutely! My love of horses got me into the sport. As I have stated in the past, I don't watch racing to bet, I watch for the love of watching a horse do what it was born to do RUN.

As for the crop issue, I (LIKE GENUINE) carry a crop EVERY time I ride. Most of the time all I do is wave it around for Buck to see. Just kinda reminds him to pay attention to me and not the hay truck moving back at the barn. MOST riders carry one. I even use to wear spurs when I rode Freddy. OH BAD GIRL I AM. Honestly, anyone at the barn where I am at can tell you they would let me ride, take care of, etc... anyone of their horses. When Freddy's owner found out I wasn't going to be riding him anymore they said "But she's family". Yes, whips can be bad, but anything can be bad in the wrong hands.