Wouldn't have beat the 7 today but he ran well, given he blew the first turn and then looked dead and came flying with a little trouble.

Good job Titan on the hit.....

thanks.. actually feeling kind of sick to my stomach now.. couldn't bring myself to 'really' pull the trigger earlier.

at least I caught the p4 a few times. :rolleyes:

First of all, congratulations to Titan Sooner. Great job.

Now, for those that wonder why some people have occasional problems with seemingly odd performances by Gary Contessa trained runners, I suggest they take a good long look at the future Kentucky Derby ( and probable Triple Crown winner ) that just won the NY Bred finale. Earlier on the card, Ricardo A, another Gary Contessa runner, somewhat suprisingly galloped versus OK older claimers, at a somewhat surprisingly low 2-1. Well, that's OK, Ricardo A has run some decent races in the past, and is capable of Beyer figs in the low to mid 90s. However, the mighty Wishful Tomcat just ran a full second faster than Ricardo A. Now, don't give me " he was loose on the inner " argument....because so was Ricardo A. However you want to cut it, the performance by Wishful Tomcat is the kind that make horseplayers angry....to say the least. It's inexplicable.

By the way, props go to CJ.. you're figs are the best!

Great job Titan!!!

Excellent run Titan. Congrats.

Take a look at the pps for tomorrow's 8th race and take a good luck at Missile Motor, a 4YO gelding that Contessa claimed off Bruce Levine, and explain to me his 111 first time off the claim. Don't give me the mud, because he's run in the mud before, and his figures are consistent with his dry track races.

Where do these performances come from?

This could be fun tonight :)

It's not fun. You've got a 14% trainer who's horses seem to run, at random, Grade 1 races....before slipping off routinely into oblivion.

Mr. Contessa is so impressed with Missile Motor's 111 ( over a length faster than the number Midnight Lute earned in winning the BC Sprint ) that he is offering him tomorrow for the same $50K price he was in for before his Grade 1 effort.

I think it made it pretty obvious I thought the horse was a lock in the finale. But a Secretariat like score? Come on, this is getting ridiculous.

Great job, Titan!

I agree it isn't fun, but nothing will ever change. It won't change until they go to a baseball type penalty system, and horse racing gets one governance system, otherwise, we are all wasting our breath.

It is amazing how many baseball players SHRUNK in a matter of months because of the impeding penalties on cheaters, it is equally amazing how the HR numbers lowered for the comedy players. I think the same would happen if those type of stances were taken in horse racing

Congrats to Titan on a superb effort... Send along the address for a prize pack!

Thanks Steve.. will do.

111 is, what, top 15 or so sprinting for the year? I don't track the NY figures but it is truly unbelieveable. In the horse's defense and not necessarily Contessa's, Missle did break his maiden in his FTS in the mud (not slop) and won his first five. I also don't track at all the NY repeat winners but Contessa's 19% off a last out win.

So there's a couple mitigating things on MM (and perhaps a third if you don't believe the number). But if the # is solid and especially since he's back for $50k, you just got to wonder.

There were only four higher Beyer figs run in America that were higher at 6F this year. Fabulous Strike, who crushed the field in the Grade 1 Vosburgh, did it twice ( 115 and 114 ), Idiot Proof ( who finished second in the BC Sprint ) got a 113 and the mighty multiple stakes winning Smokey Stover got a 112. Benny the Bull, who won the Grade 1 De Francis Dash, equaled the mighty Missile Motor's 111 on two occasions.

Pretty heady company for a horse still available for $50K.

There's a line in the Davidowitz book, "if Contessa tried to walk across the Hudson, I wouldn't bet against him"

I feel that way about him sometimes too. Especially when you come up with a well thought out selection at a square price that gets destroyed by his "magic". :(

But he's barely a winning trainer. He wins at 14%. However, there are times when his horses just run out of their skulls, and these performances are neither repeated or exhibited elsewhere in their pps.

It's the dichotomy between the Aqueduct meets and the rest of the year that really gets my goat. It isn't just 14%, it's like 32% on the inner and 8% at Saratoga/Belmont, which is kind of ridiculous. Granted, he's one of the few that keeps his better stock around in the winter, but still.

Better stock of what?

Isn't there also a possible good aspect of something like this in terms of betting?
Don't Wishful Tomcat (and his other one-hit wonders) become solid bet-againsts in their next starts?

I hardly believe MM's effort last out was worthy of anything remotely close to a 111 especially considering were talking about, at the end of the day, the horse getting 1:09.3 over a sealed surface. Granted many other factors go in, yada yada, but you have to assume this number is hugely inflated based on how he embarassed a field that obviously wanted nothing to do with the off going. I don't posess the resourses for such data, but would love to see how others fared in similar conditions...I'm guessing closer to 101-104.

Funny that in this exact same race, Mr. Jacobson's Lazarus style reinvigoration of the 3 I Ain't No Saint, taken off Linda Rice's goes completely unmentioned.

If one were interested in raising an objective "hairy eyeball" to anything in this race, my god man, it would have to be this. I however am more than willing to give Mr. Jacobson the benefit of the doubt here.

Since were talking BSF's here, I Ain't No Saint 3 starts prior to being claimed at Saratoga were 66/83/64. He ran a soundly beaten 3rd and turned in a 76 for the effort the day he was claimed.

Jacobsen claims the horse, gives it 7 weeks off and brings him back to record a 98 bsf 22 points better than the claim effort and miles better than anything in his then recent form. Cut to the next start in the Maria's Mon when he lost by a nostril in a blanket finish at the wire where he puts up a 102 bsf 26 points better than the claim effort. For what it's worth,
and again, many factors including the stake, the surface, etc. but the race was run over the same 6f track where MM was graced with a 111, the winning time of The Maria's Mon was 1:09:2 a fifth faster than MM.

To be honest, if this horse doesn't win it's next start it's even more disgraceful.

I have no idea how this guy stays in business. Everything he claims ends up dropping in class, he has Samyn as his go-to rider, and wins at like 8%.....I wish I could get paid to have production like that.

So let me get this straight, because David Jacobson also has suspicion improvements then it is OK, or reasonable, that Gary Contessa does? Nobody here suggested Contessa was the only trainer in America that has these unreasonable performances, I wish it was true, but since he was the magician du jour we were focusing on him.

You say Missile Motor got an inflated figure. Based on what? Did you analyze the other horses' performances in the race or were you just trying to suggest that the improvement by Mr. Contessa couldn't possibly have been as outrageous as it was? A 104 would have seemed reasonable for this horse?

But, to be fair, let's take a look at the other participants in Missile Motor's Grade 1 type performance.....Fleet Valid finished second and earned an 88. His previous six figures were 81, 101, 75, 102, 80 and 108. Introspect, who finished third, got an 87. His previous figs were 75 ( off a layoff ), 84, 88, 83, 92, 88 and 87. He's a Pioneer ( 4th ) got an 81. His prior efforts earned 85, 93, 91, 68, 101 and 93. That Magic Moment was 5th and earned an 80. His prior numbers were 71, 85, 70, 67 and 81. Daddy Joe got a 66 for his 6th place finish. His prior numbers were 98, 78, 82 and 79. The Student, who was 7th, got a 64. His prior efforts earned 86, 90, 91, 87 and 93. And Sinkwich finished 8th and last and earned a 61. His prior numbers were 53, 88, 67, 83, 90, 88 and 88.

It appears that only That Magic Moment's number was even possibly out of line....but then again he too was running first time for the great Gary Contessa. Like it or not, the 111 stands up extraordinarily well under scrutiny.

The horse is 5-2-1-1 over an off surface...I wouldn't jump to this conclusion unless the track conditions are similar.

We were referring to today's wunderkind.

Go, Titan, Go!
 

Congratulations, Titan! I should have "spliced" these two tickets of mine and created WINNER.

Guess I will hold on to my self-ascribed title as "Mr. FiveOfSix". Bring on the next carryover...

Here are the career Beyer figures for the mighty Missile Motor, starting with his debut, and I have highlighted each wet track number....

67, 83, 73, 88, 93, 87, 75, 71 ( turf ), 90, 89, 91, 90, 89......and then the Big Daddy 111.

Based on this there is absolutely no evidence that he improves on a wet track.....in fact two of his three worst dirt numbers were earned on wet tracks.

his 10k claimers that run like 50k'ers, not just his 10k claimers that run like 10k claimers. Not to mention his ridiculous Winning Move purchases, which seem to have a runner in EVERY race these days.

Not at all. In fact I believe I made it a point to not suggest this...What I am suggesting is that in my opinion this was more of an 11-14 point move up, and considering this horses affinity for an off surface, and the visually impressive win over a field that didn't particularly care for it - the figure seemed ridiculously high.

I don't have anything more to base my opinion on other than the replay and tomorrow's form. And the fact is that IANS was awarded a bsf 9 points lower going a 1/5 of a second faster at the same distance. I would love to find out what sort of bsf's MM was awarded in his previous 3 board hits over an off track. And furthermore my post was simply to point out an ironic observation that in the same race your point would have been more clearly served by a more flagrant example. Unless the point was to throw axes at Contessa, then it was spot on.

Nice work Titan!

hey titan, fantastic! nice work.

You say toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe. Two of Missile Motor's fastest BSFs came on WET surface. I am using Olympic scoring here -- toss 67 debut and 111 inexplicable fig. History would suggest that 89-90 is tomorrow's number.

Overbet is probably real headline here. Finding "live" overlay is challenge for all.

First of all, you really don't understand speed figures, and to be surprised that similar times earned on different racing days received different figures only magnifies this. Your baseless claims about the 111 have been thoroughly debunked.

However, the latter part of your post is really outlandish. Once again, we were talking about Gary Contessa because of what took place in today's 9th race. " Throw axes at Contessa?????" You have to be kidding! I stated facts about his horses. If you don't like that these facts make him look bad then that's not my problem and I suggest you ask yourself why you feel a need to defend him if you don't think the situation is at all curious.

And hopefully you don't use this kind of logic when you bet your money. The simple fact is that prior to Contessa having this horse the best he ever performed on a wet track was consistent with his current form.

Wow,horse was fighting jock on the 1st turn(wanted to go a lot faster than it did.)

Finally, common ground :D

I understand what they purport to represent, based on some subjective formula. I understand that a number of factors go into the formula each day based of various conditions and that a because 1:09.2 earned a 102 on one day may not necessarily mean that it's impossible for a 1:09.3 to earn a 111 the next. No surprise here. Got it.
I use them loosely as a minor confirmation of an opinion and perhaps a plausable snapshot of current form. Nothing more. I certainly would put no more credence in them than any other form of technical analysis available, and don't ever base my wagering dollar solely on them.

So as far as my "claim" being baseless and thoroughly debunked - Once again I never "claimed" anything, only offered an opinion - an opinion, as far as I'm concerned, that is as subjective as the science they are based on.


I'm not defending Gary Contessa, have no need to defend him, and honestly couldn't care less. What I'm getting from you is that you don't care for him as a trainer because you feel his inconsistancies, particularly first off the claim, makes your life more difficult as a player - thus suggesting improprities...I just won't jump off that cliff with you, Andy..Lastly, I didn't see the last race today and only responed to your allegations about Missile Motor tomorrow. I think the number is high, you don't. C'est la vie.