Nope, actually they are only c. Them buying these stallions is the equivalent of us buying a DVD on sale at Target for $9.99. I sh!t you not. Do the math, it is scary how insignificant $50 million is to them.

I wouldn't go as far as saying they are idiots, but B and C definitley come into it. They have become so hell bent on beating Coolmore they have let the business slip and forgot about their own breeding operation.

I'm not sure if this is to do with the feud with Coolmore, i simply think that they are desperate to get the leading freshman in 2010 and have the sire of the Derby winner in 2011 (it will be a bonus if they own the winner, also). When they bought Street Sense and Hard Spun (a deal which i think was done almost as soon as they crossed the line), they thought that would be all they needed. Then Curlin came and beat Street Sense and i bet they were thinking "sh!t", my guess is that they tried to get him, too......... then to dent them even further, AGS comes along and destroys Curlin, now their thoughts are "double sh!t".......... the only thing they can do (in their eyes) is buy AGS because he is competition to HS ans SS in the breeding shed.

The worrying thing is that these people don't care about making up the cost in stallion fees and if they wanted to they could just go on a mare spending spree and only breed their own mares by these stallions for the first couple of years. If that was to happen, it could be a major crisis.

I maitain the fact that buying the competition both in racing and breeding is slowly killing the sport, and almost 100% of that is being carried out by this organisation.

Sorry to go off topic, but is this a world wide phrase now? Everyone around here is saying that now. It has sort of sprung up from no where.

yeah, same here.

i just started hearing that phrase about 35 years ago too.

Is this natural 8.5 furlong animal really top class?
 

Do you guys feel this is a superior animal? I am talking horseflesh here not his recent running form.

Personally I think he is a nice horse for sure, but not a top of the breed animal. I think he has shown dramatic improvement as far as running goes in the last 3 months. That to me along with several others in his barn who showed dramatic improvent and or surprisingly brilliant finishes in the last 3 months is a credit to the trainer. It has been at the point where you see a Pletcher "2nd stringer" like Sam P. and you wonder if Sam P. will suddenly show this brilliant finish although nothing on his form suggests it. Mike Mitchell East. This is a horse that looked like he could never make it to 10 furlongs, now he suddenly is the best finishing 3yo.

I understand Distorted Humor is a popular sire and for that reason Any Given Saturday will be popular to some right away. I do not think AGS will be terrible as a sire, he may even produce a few precocious runners or show a little versatility, but I don't see him as a super-sire in waiting.

I'm of the complete opposite to this. He is a a grand looking son of Distorted Humor, who is improving with every run. I doubt there is any major stud out there that wouldn't want him. I think he has everything he needs to be a really top stallion.

Out of all new American stallions that Darley will have by next year, i think it will be Street Sense and Discreet Cat that disappoint in the breeding shed.

It is hard to know for sure, but I think he has a good chance to be a good sire. His pedigree is extremely impressive. Not only is he by Distorted Humor, but his dam (Weekend in Indy) is by AP Indy and out of a stakes winning daughter of Spectacular Bid. Weekend in Indy's other foal was also a graded stakes winner.
Now, because most of Distorted Humor's best runners have been either geldings (Funny Cide and Commentator) or relatively new sires (Flower Alley) it is impossible to know if he will make a good "sire of sires" but he certainly might.
As for AGS's performances on the track, other than his two uninspired performances in April and May of this year, he has five wins and two places from seven starts, and given his recent success, seems to be still on the upside of his career. I think he has a better shot than most of becoming a good sire...........if he can overcome the guilt of letting down DrugS.

Points in no particular order
1. Darley's American breeding operation has been pretty lousy
2. It is no secret that Sheikh Mo wants to do anything in his power to hurt Coolmore (which he has)
3. There is zero chance that they paid $50 mill for AGS
4. Winstar has Distorted Humor, they dont need AGS (plus they think that they going to get one like him every year...), why not cash out before he possibly gets exposed?
5. Speculating on the success of future stallions is difficult because other than proof of being top class, racing performance does not have that much to do with it.
6. Darley's buying these three year olds up because they are convinced that this is an outstanding crop and they want to be a bigger player in the stallion ranks in USA (which they now are)
7. I don't think that they will buy Curlin unless he wins out the rest of the year , then all bets are off.

There is every chance they paid $50million for him. Money is no object for them and WinStar had already expressed their delight about standing him next year. There is no way they would have let him go for any less than twice what he is worth. With his pedigree and race record, and the fact he is still improving (so it seems) he would easily be worth $20million at least as a stallion prospect.

Sure, they have Distorted Humor, but these days studs want as many sons of their stallions as they can get. Just like Coolmore wanted as many sons of Danehill as they could get.

I'm pretty certain that they wouldn't have let him go for anything less than $40million.

Without saying too much, your number is very high.

They stand 6 stallions. They already have DH and a son. They are not Coolmore.

what do you mean by that??!

discreet cat will run for at least 3 more years dude!

now, i'm not really a fan of distorted humor, and i'm certainly no fan of this crop of 3yos, but one thing intrigues me about AGS as a stallion prospect.

actually, this is more to do about AGS's sire, distorted humor, but bear with me.

people are forgetting that not that long ago, DH first started out as about a 5k stallion. the mares sent to him werent really that good, and when you look at the way DH moves up his mares, well, his numbers for that are PHENOMENAL.

Both his average earnings index, and the other figure they use to compare how much a stallion moves up a mare compared to other stallions those mares have been bred to are sky high, and the comparative index blows away any other sire (as of the last time i checked). he even blows away indian charlie in that regard (who has routinely got the worst book of mares a big name stallion can possibly get).

now that we are actually seeing well bred mares being sent to DH, such as is the case with AGS, i think we are going to see a high demand for sons of DH. i wouldnt be surprised to see him become the next really big sire of sires, much like mr p or northern dancer were.

has any stallion's stud fee moved up as fast as DH by the way? from about 5-10k to 225k in well under 10 years.

I look at Street Sense and think "Look at those classic lines"
is SS "Superior"? I hope so. AGS looks nice but not superior.

i think the odds are that one in ten stallions is considered a success....so if darley buys 100, they're bound to get 10 good ones! what a rate of return.:rolleyes:

equivalent to throwing mud on a wall, and seeing what sticks....

not so sure that they are buying up what they consider the best, or just making sure coolmore can't. but i suppose they think by buying up all the top colts, they are assured a place in the future.
i think it's crazy. no real plan--and if this is their thinking, who decides what mares go to whom??

if you fail to plan, you plan to fail(don't you love cliches?). no rhyme or reason, just snap them all up. crazy stuff.

The sale Price was not 50 Million I am 100% positive. I am sworn to not say what the true Price is BUT I will Say it is some where BETWEEN 35 and 45 Million ;)

At last, someone with sense..........

Godolphin/Darley don't have a plan, do they even have a clue? They are just mass buying, hoping that something works out. If it doesn't they just go and buy more and more until it does work. Which is why i have said that these stallions better be a hit for your sakes, of the buying will never end.

They have done the same over here with racehorses that they have no intention to breed from, they have just been buying up the racing competition, and they still can't compete. It's a joke.

and it's funny to see that as much as they've tried, they are retreating on the track. amazing how little success they've had lately...then again, maybe not so amazing. you have to wonder who is their bloodstock manager--are they seeking the best horses or the best pedigrees?

people talk about breeding to race vs breeding to sell (ostensibly for someone else to race). seems there's a third one. breeding to sell(to breed).

Well, when the sheikh has John Ferguson and Simon Crisford advising him what to buy, they don't have much chance of success :D

Ferguson seems to be pedigree lover. I quite think that he will see a beautiful pedigree and will pay upwards of $5million for it and then he discovers it has three good legs.

i guess it depends on their ultimate goal...but it just seems they are throwing money in all directions, rather than having a real sense of the approach they want to take.

i just think if they wanted to build a real successful stable, they can and will--and have. but the focus is seemingly on being better than coolmore..the sheik has a huge undertaking ahead of him.

meanwhile, coolmore follows their plan, and their sucesses continue.

also, wonder why the sheik is so fixated on coolmore--lane's end is doing better than him as well....

amazing the top sires and their farms on this years list. top two are lane's end stallions, then a winstar, and then two ashfords(coolmore).

lane's end has 5 in the top 20.
ashford has 4.
darley? 1

“Anything less than 50 would be uncivilized,” :cool:

lol

shows poor form not to overpay....

funny, i read where paul reddam has a rep for overpaying--guess the same could be said for the owner of darley.

Very true. In the beginning, when spending was limited and the number of horses they had in their stable was also limited they were successful. Then for no reason at all they decided to increase their stable size by around 200% and continued to buy other people's horses that they regarded as competition. It failed to work then, so why should it work now? They cannot see this, it seems.

There is no doubt in my mind that they are jealous of Coolmore. It must really frustrate them when they see Coolmore doing very little (so it seems) but continuing with huge success year after year.

As you have said, it doesn't seem like they have a plan other than to buy and hope for the best. It's the same with racehorses and stallion prospects.

Their decision not to buy any yearlings at public auctions by Coolmore stallions was just stupid. Coolmore stallions are at the top of the tree each year, a business cannot stop buying the best if they want to succeed. Everyone sees that decision as nothing more than stupid, but they don't see that.

Another thing is the fact that they continue to buy horses for their stable because apparently the ones they already have aren't good enough. It's great marketing for their breeding operation isn't it :rolleyes:

You act as though they never win a race. Do you not understand that the means of achieving for them is not nearly as important as the final result? They (sheikMo) wants to eclipse Coolmore because he has a personal issue with them. He has the means to pursue his goal and to me it looks as though he is doing a pretty good job of it. The fact is that they pretty much have unlimited money and are not afraid to use it. Maybe it turns you off but that's life.

I beg to differ. Coolmore's stallion roster in the US is full of middle of the road types, some old ones, some fading ones, and a couple of promising ones. American breeders with the power mares are thinking twice about Coolmore stallions because they know the biggest player is out of the market for their foals. Darley is also driving up the premium stallion market to force Coolmore to either overpay for a prospect or not be a player for them. They did it to him and now he is doing it to them.

the green monkey effect..?

Started long before him...

and you obviously can't see that they are losing ground on Coolmore year after year.

You talk about the final result? Is this result so far in the future that none of us will see it?

They are concentrating so much on what Coolmore are doing, i think they forget that they are running a stable and breeding operation as well. They don't back up their own stallions by buying their offspring at the sales (well, very rarely). Coolmore play the game by paying lots for offspring of their own stallions to make them look more popular and it has worked so far, so it seems. They paid 1,400,000 euros for a son of Galileo in France the other day. Darley seem to forget about their current stallions.

To me, they are looking for a quick fix.

So they should artificially create a market by buying up horses sired by their stallions, many of which they already own? (in effect buying their own horses)

That is what pissed off the arabs in the first place and you seem to think that this fraudelent practice is a good thing. You can call it playing the game or whatever but when your premier US stallion's(Giants Causeway) yearling averages have dropped from $222,100(2006) to $79,914 (2007)in one year and the medians dropped from $120000 to $61000, I would say that what they are doing may be having an effect.

If you think that Coolmore is going to come out ahead in this matter than be my guest. But I'm thinking that the biggest buyer in the world not buying your product is going to hurt you. The trickledown effect apparantly is already occuring and if you think that Demi O'Byrne spending more of Coolmore's money is going to trick US buyers or breeders, you are sadly mistaken. The handwriting is on the wall.

well said.

game...set...match

why is darley so determined to go after coolmore? what caused the boycott to begin with?

had no idea giants causeways numbers were down that low. and why is he listed as private--i thought that was generally done only with older stallions who were closing in on retirement?

and no doubt the biggest buyer not buying will hurt. does anyone else ignore coolmore now as well? is darley able to sway some of their buyers not to buy from coolmore? just how far does this all go?

but with coolmore being world wide, and having so much success still overseas, does the loss of potential customers over here level their playing field? just seems you see a lot of articles lately talking about godolphin staggering along, while coolmore continues to win the big ones.

giants causeway's yearling numbers will go way back up after the sept sale, which is the #1 sale in the world.

so far, the only yearling sales to have taken place have been pretty weak, save maybe that last FT one which was decent.

The way i see it is that Coolmore see the American market as the least of their worries. I wouldn't like to say why, but they have always been more interested in the european market.

Darley and Godolphin are staggering along, you only have to see the stallion stats to notice that. So many Coolmore stallions from around the world in the top half of the list, but only a couple of Darley stallions.

Many mare owners will look at this list first, and the psychological impact it has to see Coolmore have so many stallions in the top bracket is usually enough to sway their decision over many other stud organisations. Why do you constantly see Darley advertising almost everyday of the week all through the year? Because their outside 'sales' are low. Coolmore don't really need to market that much, the stats give them as much free marketing as they need.

Someone was saying it isn't a good ploy for Coolmore to buy yearlings by their stallions?????? Porbably the most absurd argument i have seen. 1. By buying a lot of their stallion's yearlings it shows they trust the stallions they have, they are backing up their own business (which any business in any sector would do). 2. By paying the amount they can for them, the average price for the sire's yearlings goes up each year..... something else that looks very good on them. People don't look who buys these yearlings, they just look at the prices and average prices in recent years. Nothing wrong with it, they are playing the game, as i said, it has seemingly worked thus far and it will continue to work.

Tony Morris, who is the best bloodstock writer in the world described Darley/Godolphin's decision to stop buying offspring by Coolmore's sires as nothing short of "stupid". Sure it might 'hurt' Coolmore a bit, but with the amount of money this industry is worth, it is a tiny percentage. Their stallions do the talking, not their buyers.

Sure, the American stallions aren't the best at the moment, Giant's Causeway has dipped, but as IC just said, once the big sales come around again, there is every chance the prices of his yearlings will rise sharply again. You seem to forget that the stallions in Ireland contain the best stallions in the world and continues to thrive in europe and around the world.

Coolmore can't be doing a lot wrong with how they add an extra chunk onto their lead over Godolphin each year, and it doesn't look like it will stop anytime soon.

Godolphin seem to panic buy, without much success. If they want to close the gap of Coolmore they should concentrate on their own racing and breeding operation..... not other peoples.

Not necessarily. He has already had 62 go through the ring this year including the biggest sale (Ingles) in the Southern hemisphere and 2 major yearling sales here (July and Saratoga) He had 89 sell last year and will probably have a similar number this year.

There is very little competition in Europe.

Of course however in the future when Darleys new crop of stallions start producing runners the lists may have an entire new look.