but he isn't considered a 50K claimer anymore now is he?
Isn't he the winner of like 6 or more GR1's?
Should $50K claimers routinely be able to step up and run competitively in these GR1's in Ca. They do and I have no problem with it. Also I enjoy Lava Mans will to win.

Deserves some credit? I'll say. He ran the most impressive race of anyone in the field. Coming from where he did on that slow pace was very good.

this is the biggest flasehood in my view, the idea that they would come face him. No they wouldn't anymore than Lava Man ships all around the country to race in every big purse. It's costly and risky and not necessary when you can race for big purses in your own back yard.

Why don't you consider the same issues for the horses you say should ship in to race against Lava Man. The SoCal climate is completely different than most other places. Also with respect to HP there is no other cushion track and its well known that you need some experience over it to run well. You are either based in SoCal or not. If you're not then its not likely that you ship out there when you can race closer to home.

So you're saying its much more plausible that he doesn't fire every time he travels? rather than even consider that his talent level is somewhat marginal.

I guess if I'm Mike Mitchell I would now be pointing Big Booster to the Breeders Cup Classic. Sun Boat too for that matter. These are some of the top handicap horses in SoCal.

People seem to get caught up in arguing about whether all of Lava Man's impressive accomplishments are the result of him being a good horse, or if it is the result of his fairly easy competition.
I believe the answer is.........both.
Lava Man's accomplishments are incredible. Winning the Big Cap and the Gold Cup in the same year is impressive. He has now done that two years in a row.
Last year he won G1s on the turf and dirt. You don't see that very often.
etc. etc.
Based solely on his number of G1 wins, he looks like the horse of the decade. But because of the competition he has faced, and his complete failures when he leaves SoCal, he is certainly not that.
Now, has he faced spectacular competition in those SoCal races? Not at all. But it takes a pretty good horse to show up time after time even to beat the Borregos, Super Frolics, Brother Dereks, and A.P. Xcellents of the sport. Is beating any of those horses very impressive? No. But showing up to beat horses of that caliber consistently over a three-year span IS fairly impressive. In other words, he certainly was handed a great opportunity to rack up some big-time accomplishments, but it takes a pretty good horse to seize that opportunity.
He is not the best horse in the world. He isn't even close. But it hasn't just been Cali with a lack of good horses in the handicap division the last few years. After Lava Man beat Borrego in the 2005 HGC, Borrego went east in the fall and won the JCGC. Look at the last two years. Who did Bernardini beat in the JCGC last year? Who just won the Suburban? etc. etc.

They shipped him to Keeneland 3 weeks early for the Breeder's Cup and this was allegedly what he really needed - guess not.

Just reminding that @ one point Lava Man was a claimer..remember Bluesstandard..Heck of a stakes winner also.. You never know what u have in a horse no matter what the cost

exactly, so why is it such a bone of contention on lava mans end?? so many want HIM to ship, while seeing no need whatsoever for the 'other side' to do the same.

think back everyone to the last time the bc was held in cali. refresh my memory how the 'east coasters' did that day.

exactly, why ship for same money against tougher if you dont need to. Stay home, keep racking up wins and money. He cant be used @ stud, good for racing only.

that's right.

it's all part of the east coast bias, east being considered 'better' than west. but then, many in the east try to include ky--altho it's not east coast, it's central.

if east doesn't have to ship, then why the automatic knock on lava man? why is it felt he must? why is it ok for an east to ship west and lose, but not vice versa?

John Henry anybody? Claimed for $25K (but inflation since then means it is about even with the Dude's price). Stymie, one of the immortals of the breed, was claimed for $1500!! Brass Hat ran in a Maiden claimer 15K first out. Even Princequillo, the great stayer of the 1940s and a pillar of the breed ran in claimers before his prowess as a stayer was recognized.

Running in a claimer at some point in a horse's career does not mean that horse is garbage forever and ever. He may have an unrecognized problem, a trainer who doesn't understand his particular talents, or been a slow maturing sort who can't compete with the Storm Cats of the breed when they are 2 or 3.

And why ship all the way to suckcal,oops,SOCAL when all you gotta do is jump in a van and go up and down the east coast.

Saturday's Beyers
Lava Man 105
Political Force 105

the hollywood race field was very average, agree

the suburbon was a crap field, if the gold cup was such an easy spot why run in the suburbon and not the gold cup when he was out there all winter? Because of Lava Man, his figures are very solid in california.

some very good horses have not shipped well but I am sure you knew that.

the point I have made over the years, a complete double standard. Its not easy shipping.

your a troll, and are making completely hypocritical arguments, you knock the horse for not shipping and winning and then saying its irrelevant for east coast horses because its good money and races on the east coast. I hate to break it to you but they ran for 750k yesterday.

Are you this dense, please tell me you are just a troll?

Not trolling at all.East coast AND midwest horses ship all over and win all the time.SoCal horses leave the confines of California and lose.All the time.Just look at the derby this year.I Knock the horse because you all act like he is the second coming of Secretariat.He is not!!!! He wins because SoCal racing is SUB PAR!!!!! I would keep him there and win all the time if he was mine,If people are that stupid to give away that kind of money to crap horses,I would stay and clean up too.

you mean like the horse who won the santa anita oaks and las virgenes winning the Oaks and Belmont....bad racing we know.

Give it up dude.You won't ever convince me.

I think a rock could fall out of the sky and you would dispute the Laws of Gravity.

I think you are a terrible handicapper and know absolutely nothing about racing at all.Give it up.

I am sure you are right.

He's not going to be happy until an earthquake completely wipes out all of us in California.

God is just waiting for the rest of the whacko's to get out there before he does that!

maybe he owns property in Yuma

when you moving?

Can't.Gotta stay close to my doctor.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe John Henry was ever claimed. (he did run in cheap claiming races) Do you have any references to back that statement up?

(not that it really matters in this discussion, but I'd like to know where / when / connections on both sides)

http://horseracing.about.com/library...y/aa100997.htm
http://thoroughbredchampions.com/bio.../johnhenry.htm

altho john was sold MANY times, he was never actually claimed out of a race.

Blood Horse is the only one reporting the truth about the "second slowest" HGC ever - that LM set a new track record for 1 1/4 miles on cushion track. It's all relative and comparing dirt to cushion track is like comparing a moron to an idiot.

You are right about this. To you, the facts do not matter at all. No matter what happens, or what anybody says, you will continue to believe what you believe. Congratulations.
I'm no big fan of Lava Man, and I could care less about the current state of racing in SoCal. But you are so caught up in your hatred for the racing there that you seem to be consumed by it. A poster makes a fair comment about a horse that had raced in SoCal and went on to do nice things in Kentucky and New York, and your response is "Give it up dude." How clever.

The horse in question,SHIPPED IN FROM CHURCHILL DOWNS,KICKED ASS FOR 3 RACES,THEN LEFT AND WENT ON TO KENTUCKY AND NEW YORK!!! It was claimed it couldn't be done,and it was.THis was NOT a california horse,as is claimed.Those are the FACTS!!

Give it up dude, you'll never convince me.

shipped in, the horse was stabled in california for 5 months and trained by McCarthy. The point being some good horses do exist out there. Your silly.

How about it was trained by McCarty for 2 races because Todd Pletch was on his vacation at the time.Stop trying to claim something that isn't yours.:D

Again you miss the larger point. If a poster raises a question or makes a comment, it probably makes more sense to respond to it with something other than simply "Whatever" and "give it up dude" and your always predictable and boring rants about the quality of racing there.
Did you notice the way that ArlJim was making several of the same points you were trying to make? The only problem for you is the fact that Jim made them actual points, and argued his position logically and articulately.
See the difference "dude?"

you think pletcher trained that horse for those 5 months, get real.

the poster is rediculous, I am sure the names like sunday silence, ap indy, silver charm, real quit just are blips on the radar. Horses like azeri are a figments of our imagination.

No I think you need to get real and have your facts straight.I am done arguing with you now

I hadn't even realized that you had started arguing, but if you say you are done......okay.