On Saturday, Mr. Abbas told The Associated Press, "The Egyptian efforts have encountered difficulties because there is no partner in Hamas capable of making decisions."

He added, "The Hamas leadership abroad says that the decision is in the hands of the military wing in Gaza, while the military wing says that the decision must be made by the leadership abroad."



So this is what Israel has to deal with. And then of course Mr. Abbas has his own group splintered into parts. So I guess Israel feels they can only deal with them by pressuring the entire Gaza strip and uniting them. Mr. Olhmert has stated they will not sleep at night, they will know how the waiting feels while Israeli jets send sonic booms down on the general population every night periodically.

Pat,
This article is interesting. Condelizza is involved now too.
http://apnews.myway.com//article/200...D8IK57BO0.html

Here it is again from your article DTS.

"This is unacceptable," Haniyeh said. "This will not break the will of the Palestinian people."



What the hell is the will of the Palestinian people? Israel will not be allowed to exist? We will not give the soldier back? We want.... what? They are speaking from so many directions it is impossible to deal with them at this point.

Pat,
I agree that they are speaking from many directions.
In my humble view, it's plenty tough to negotiate when the power station has been destroyed, no water because the pumps are inoperable, bridges gone, and missiles into the headquarters.
At this point, my guess is that the "will" of the Palestinian people is just to survive. Seems to me that Israel has made the most of one kidnapped soldier.
I really am not against Israel, but the suffering they've imposed on the Palestinians is obvious.
Maybe, when there is fresh water to drink in Gaza, the thirst will be sated.
Calm heads can then sit at a table to discuss the "impossible".
I certainly hope so...but I don't see it at this point either.
DTS

A short article from the Boston Globe, posted today.
I can't imagine what it's like living there.
Tragic stuff.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0710-23.htm

Interesting read.

Too bad extremists such as Bold Brooklyn will label others anti-semetic just for looking at this with a modest degree of balance.

Herer's another viewpoint....

The Israeli's consider this "War" against the Palestinians. Yet when the soldier was captured, the Israelis and far-right factions of the press referred to his capture as "kidnapping" and illegal.

Independent Palestinian state? Israel says no. Why? Who knows.

Single state with full citizenship rights for Palestinians? Israel says no. Why? Who knows, though many posit that allowing potential Palistinian-Israelis to vote might actually get them some representation.

So, Palestinians continue to be held prisoner in their own land. Israel allows and perpetuates the corruption that may exist in Gaza because it preserves their interest which is to maintain the status quo.

For years, Arafat was gserved up by Israel as the roadblock, i.e., "No partner in Peace." That myth died last year.

Make no mistake. Israel holds all the cards here.

There don't seem to be any good solutions here...but folks must remember that the government of Israel is nothing if not predictable...is there anyone in the world who thought they wouldn't go for the throat once one of their's was kidnapped? I honestly believe the terrorists want this kind of response to galvanize the hatred against Israel and they are perfectly willing to sit and watch innocent Arab people suffer and die just to let this open sore fester! Israel will defend itself...by whatever means necessary! Like them or not, this is a certainty!!

DTS, I agree completely.

The tragedy of it all, of course, is the people suffering now include a lot of people who aren't involved. Shutting off water hurts everyone and makes it hard for people to sympathize with you.

My family is Irish American, and it reminds me of a great film I just saw called The Wind that Shakes the Barley. A lot of the people getting killed in the Troubles were just bystanders, peripheral casualties, innocents.

I wish there were an easy solution, but it's hard to quell violence that involves both land and religion.

Irish,
I haven't seen the film, but will as soon as I can.
My problem with this mess is that innocents always pay the price. It's been that way in every "war" event in my memory, and for many years previous.
I wish them fresh water and food at this point.
Children and old people don't derserve this, no matter their religion. And yes, they should have their own land where they can live in security.

DTS

Do NOT believe a word of of what this Arab-hating war-mongerer says.

Israel has been talking for 20 years about replacing Palestinian leadership. It used to be Arafat labeled as the roadblocking "No Partner in Peace." That myth is long ago shattered.

Do you thnk for one second Israel has not had opportunity to replace leadership of the Palestinians? They had the poor bastard stuck in a hole for eight months and simply chose to have him die there while on television for all the world to see as the prime example of how to treat the Palestinian people. Arafat was so very extraordinarily weak as a leader the last year of his life that any true effort by the Israelis to line up their "Partner" would have succeeded. Instead, they chose ths time to make a mockery of the "Roadmap to Peace" project.

And Damascus? Forget it. Not going to happen. Just more extreme war-mongering, Arab-hating chest-thumping rhetoric. It will never happen. The last thing Israel will do is upset the status quo and go after the Syrians. The last thing the Israelis want is to f*** with Syria. It's much simpler to continue to repress the Palestinians who, with their sticks and stones as their arsenal, make for a far easier target.

This person promotes hate, violence and repression. Nothing else. After all, it's much easier than to work for peace. Peace takes hard work and compromise. Hate, violence and repression simply require the support and weapons provided by the United States.

St. Tropez ... Mykonos ... San Remo ... hey, buddy ... what the heck is wrong with Saratoga ???

And sure ... I'm available if you get stuck with the trivia and slang ... I ain't a Brooklynite for nuthin, ya know.

Just e-mail me any time you got a problem. You got a problem with that?

Answer the questions

As the old saying goes ...

"The Palestinians never miss an oportunity to miss an opportunity."

You'd think they'd observe the tremendous success which Israel has had in turning a desert into a blooming garden ... and developing their Mediterranean coastline into a world-class resort ... and say ... "Hey, if the Israelis can do it ... we can do it too. In fact ... let's show them that we can do it even better. Let's cooperate with each other ... show respect for foreigners ... open up our markets to investment ... honor property rights ... and create jobs and prosperity for all our people ... just like they did."

But no ... you'd be wrong because ... yes, that's right ... because ... the Palestinians never miss an oportunity to miss an opportunity.

That's as true as saying the Israelis never miss an opportunity to turn off water and electricity to the oppressed Palestinians. Oh wait, that's actuallt true. Never mind.

Answer the questions schmedrick.

C'mon, ya needle.

Answer the

[quote=Dixie Porter]My memory is just fine, thank you very much.

The world is a different place than 40 years ago, though you might not like to think it.

Just what the hell would you do with Syria? Answer that.

You are lucky to have the Palestinians do your labor, fuel your economy and in return you do all you can to oppress them. Pure and simple. If you beat any creature long enough it WILL bite back.

We've been hearing for YEARS all about what you are going to do to Syria. Yeah, sure. 6 days, right. Unfortunately for you, the rest of the world is getting tired of the bull**** treatment of the Palestinians. Yes, the world has changed and recognizes the last thing Israel wants is true war when after all the Palestinians are oh so convenient.

Fact is, few Israelis support your views. Very few. However, the Israeli government has taught their people how to live in fear. It's a great tactic. It works in the U.S., no reason it won't work in the Middle East.

so you tell me...

Do you support:

1. Single state with full rights for Palestinian-Israelis
2. Idependent State.
3. Something else. (And, do pray give details here)

Can't wait for a real, sincere response to the most VERY BASIC questions I ask.

I am rapt awaiting you answer.

Oh please say it aint so. Use the bold ones help on America?
I dont think we need the Israelis hating us also. Good God this is the last person on earth... I hope this post is false. The people that hired you... I feel sorry for their business if you need to rely on this guy.

this will never end till the total invasion of palistine by the isr.army...and i have a feeling they are close...the other arabs have their own problems..they wont care imo if the humas terror govt is gone..

Ok, my LAST POST here. (copyright permission from Eldora)...

Lot's of people think that way. That's ok,... but there ARE other points of view to be offered up.

Total invasion close? Nah, isn't gonna happen. Ask yourself this....

What's taken so long?

Who's stopping it?

Who gains from change... who gains from no change?

Make love, not war.

Reach one, ....

lol bruce ..im just tired of all the useless killing...for most of my life ive seen it on tv and just hope they could work it out..bet they never will...

Here is an article that gives the history.
If you skip the first few paragraphs, the rest is very informative.
For those that are interested:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0711-23.htm

The problem can be solved. But here is what it will take.

The true recognition that Israel has a right to exist by all Arab Nations. Most of the Palestinians are now being used to shed their blood in order to punish Israel. This part is very simple. The Palestinians have so many other countries with their favorite little terrorist groups (ex Syria-Hamas) that they keep supplying weapons and saying fight on brother while not one of them die. Money keeps pouring in to these Nations who want to create a constant state of fear and chaos for the Israelis. The Palestinians are the Pawns.

When is the last time a protest took place in an Arab nation protesting the deaths of innocent Jews in Israel by rocket attacks? Now take the other side. There are a huge number of groups in Israel who defend the everyday Palestinians sometimes horrific treatment by Israel. They are totally being drowned out now though.

This is the major difference. A strong democracy in the middle east with what I deem to be of superior moral character that comes from basic Judeo-Christian ideals; these beliefs, that are incorporated into so many secular governments (including our own)...Basic individual rights, the right to worship as you please, the rule of law, the freedom to criticize your own government; all of these are basic Judeo-Christian ideals adopted by many other groups because they are extraordinarily humane.

Pat,
What you say makes a lot of sense.
As of now, Israel is playing with a heavy hand (fist).
My sympathies are with the thirsty children, old people, and innocents.
Words just might solve the problem, but as of now, fresh water would suffice.
DTS

I can see it all now ... the Six-Minute War. Please let me know when it starts ... so I can time my boiled eggs.

The last time I looked ...

... Israel consisted of about one-zilllionth of all the land currently occupied by Arabs ... from the west coast of Africa ... all the way to Mesopotamia ... who conquered most of it with bloody swords.

Just the Arab homeland of Arabia ... is hundreds of times the size of Israel. Surely the Arab homeland of Arabia is big enough ... and wealthy enough ... to squeeze in a few million of their beloved Palestinian brethren ... isn't it?

Watch out folks!
This thread will quickly go back to Xerses and Nebuchanezzer so that Bold Bk'ln can again show his command of "current events".

Is this another example of my "stalking" you ... from the front?

You're a glutton for self-humiliation. Did someone tell you a story about the flagellants ... and get you all riled up for self-abuse?

I feel very bad for the Palestinian farmers just trying to make a living. Or the merchant... let me sell my goods and dont hurt my family. But the working Palestinians do not have weapons supplied by other governments, and then many get brainwashed after the Israelis knock their houses down. I guess I would to. And many of the people causing trouble in Gaza and the West Bank are not Palestinians. They are completely dependent on Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, some Egyptian groups... it is terribly sad. But the Palestinian that wants to live in peace will have to make their voices heard. The outside influences and generations of bad blood is gonna have to stop because Israel is around for the long term. Israel is not going anywhere. They have to see this. They can try to make the Israelis live as painfully as possible, but they are never going to live the absolutely horrid lives many Palestinians have to endure. It does not have to be this way.

Sure it's big enough you ****ing moron.

That's not the point.

At least these people have the stones to stand and fight (albeit with sticks and sling-shots) for what is theirs.

You will never see cowardice from the Palestinians. Just love and a sense of honor. Ain't never going to see then "march on out" like you know who. They will stay and they WILL prevail. Next year, next decade, next century.

And the Israels' will NEVER screw with the Syrians.

The rest of the world stood idly by many years ago when those you follow destroyed the most beautiful city in the world...Beirut.

The world is a far different place now. Ain't gonna happen. All that will happen is the Israeli government will fear-monger its own people ad infinitum as it has for the last half-century.

You and Grandpa Dixie wish me harm. That's as obvious as it is expected.

I'll send you a PM with ny name, address, phone number and picture. I'm not hard to find. Just ask.

go on, ya cowardly needle, ask. I dare you. I double dare you.

Why, I'll fight you with one hand tied behind my back. I'll fight you standing on one foot. I'll fight you with my eyes closed. Why, I oughta....

Yeah, 'cause, you know, compared to the Crusades, Napoleon, the Roman Empire, William of Orange, et al, our way of conquering was *much* more peaceful.

I agree with you 100%. The Arabs have 99% of the land in the Middle East. Israel has less than 1%, yet people say Israel has too much land and should give some of their land to Arabs(Palestinians). It's a joke. Can you imagine if the situation was reversed? Can you imagine a hypothetical where the situation was revesed and the Jews had the entire Middle East and there was a tiny Muslim state called Israel? In my hypothetical, do you think that any of these Israel bashers would be demanding that this tiny Muslim state give much of their land to the Jews? Of course not.

Can you imagine?....

What if the Israelis didn't treat the 1967 negotiated borders as if they did not exist? Well, if you can, you can imagine peace (it's easy if you try).

Can you imagine ? ...

Israel and Palestinians working hard to make the agreed to "Roadmap To Peace" (which yes, surprise, required Israel to withdraw from occupied Palestinian land) work instead of making a mockery of ir? Well, if you can, you can imagine peace (it's easy if you try).

The world is not flat. The world is not make believe. Real issues require real work. Imagine that!

The ironic part is that even the name "Palestinian" is not a genuine description of who these people are. The area was always known as Judea until the Romans renamed it Syria Palestina.

The "Palestinians" are just Arabs who lived in Judea instead of their homeland of Arabia.

And speaking of the Arabian homeland ... why is it called "Saudi" Arabia? Why is this the only country on the planet which is named after a single family?

When are the Judean Arabs going to demand a return to their homeland in Arabia ... and demand that the Saud family relinquish their dictatorial and rapacious control of Arabia?

All Jews are welcome in Israel ... and all Arabs should be welcome in Arabia ... which is a huge and wealthy land. I hope and pray that some day the Judean Arabs will be able to return to a free and democratic Republic of Arabia.

Arabia for all Arabs ... not just the Saud family !!!

OK so now Hezbollah has decided to get into the kidnapping act. Now into to Lebanon. More innocent people to be toyed with. The groups and countries that support the terrorists know what the Israeli response will be. Then know innocent Lebanese will get caught in the middle. So they terrorize both the Arab people just trying to survive (because they are not paid for jihad) and Israelis. Wonderful.

THis is the kind of arguement that goes nowhere. Each group will pick a particular time in history of "greatest signficance" and claim that it is their land. This is a dead end way to solve the present crisis. Anytime the diff. sides get together and the talks degenerate into who rightfully "owns" the land, both sides immediately retreat into their own version based on God said it was ours and I will prove it with my chronology.
Heck the state I live in could be claimed by 100 different groups based on history. How far shall we go back...

Pgardn,
The question was already asked.
Seems that "claims" will always be justified in "their own minds".

As you stated, "wonderful".

This AM, I wasn't quite awake (still working on my second cup of coffee), but didn't the Israeli ambassador to the UN declare war this morning?

Wonderful.


btw, I look forward to Bold B's response to current events with evidence to the Romans. LOL!

I have not watched the news. Just went over headlines in various papers. I read nothing about this. So it could have been on the news.

As I said, I was still a bit cloudy...but I think I heard this. "Act of war"...
It should be all over the news soon enough.

But shouldn't the Jews get 1/10 of 1% of the Middle East as their homeland?

What's to be disputed once that's agreed to? And why wouldn't anyone agree to them having their own measly share ... unless they're motivated by pure hatred?

The Arabs have no excuses whatsoever for denying the Jews their tiny, tiny piece of the pie.

They have their own homeland ... it's even named after them ... it's called Arabia ... and it's very large and very wealthy. Let all Arabs go there and live in peace and freedom.

Once again you seem obsessed with responding to my posts. Please do your mental health a favor by putting me on your Ignore List.

Idiot,
I was having a diologue with Pgardn. How do YOU think you are involved?
Put me on your ignore if you don't want to hear the truth about your stupidity.
You are very mentally ill. Get help.

well the siege of lebenon and the bombing of the airport..looks like its on....w said they are a terrorist govt...no suprise there..