What a great show watching 10 jockeys strangle their mounts thru a 26 second opening quarter and a 51 second half. Maybe they should just make all the races 2 or 3 furlongs. At least it would look athletic.

All this bitchin' and moanin' -- "I've lost interest", "I won't play!" -- come Fall of '08, all these whiners will be on here with their "2,8/4,11,5/4,7/all posts. When RM wins 5 races, Ateam will proclaim "that's horrible racing." When Funnycide wins, we'll hear, "see, glorified claimers out there!"

When it's all said and done, we'll see the usual headlines: Another record handle, so and so upsets, a spill, blah, blah, blah....

From what I've seen on this board, most are gamblers and will bet any horse, anywhere if they think money is to be made.

How do you get the audacity to know that SA with a new surface will illicit an early jock stranglehold?

is it possible they would level the purses between the classic and the turf? the only real problems i've seen stated here are "i haven't figured out how to handicap this stuff" and "the turf horses will run for more money in the classic".

the first one is a personal problem. the second one is something someone needs to think through. i think if the new surface is as kind as hollypark there may be a preference for it among overseas shippers vs. the usual good (hard) conditions on sa grass.

it really is a different world now isn't it?

I'll be there too!...and Scuds is coming, and MMSC will be ensconced in the Finish Line box seats to root for the Euros!:D

Nah, broski, I haven't bet a So. Cal. track since the summer, and don't intend to anytime soon. Thanks for singling me out, though.

My dude Scuds hasn't seen the light of day in eight years, I doubt he's risking turning into a bat just because the Breeders' Cup is in town.

pedigree could become a factor depending on how the surface turns out.

Last year we had two turf horses in the BC Classic who didn't stand much of a chance. Both out of the sire Danehill. At Hollywood cushion-track, they would have run better races and wouldn't have been automatic tosses.

I don't like any Grade 1 race being run on polytrack. On the bright side the payoffs could be very nice.

I will take the 5th on that one! You never know....

That's a good point. Every year, the Danehills are automatic tosses in the dirt races, and now they probably will have to be considered.

How have you been able to formulate this opinion?

I feel it is a different surface and a fair share of high class dirt horses may not perform as well on polytrack.
When we have a Grade 1 polytrack race that usually means that it was formerly a Grade 1 dirt race. Mainly I like the dirt races and as a fan/observer don't want to see them go :).

And I will be there with bells on. Might even bring ya some special cajun cocktails. :eek: :D I done put in my reservations at the "Brown Hotel"!! ;)

We just ran the B.C. on an incredibly biased track,and most everybody still didn't seem to mind much.You pathetic losers just read the lady say her horses' legs hold up better on it,but you want them to run on the more dangerous surface(a surface that they can't seem to ever get fair on B.C. Day, anyways.) EITHER YOU GIVE A SHT ABOUT THE HEALTH OF THESE HORSES ,OR YA JUST DON'T.We actually have no choice out here,we get pathetic field sizes if we were to just keep running on dirt.That's just a fact.

Joey,I gotta better chance of going out for dollar day this Saturday than I do of going to B.C. 2008. I WENT TO THE 1ST ONE AT HOLLYWOOD PARK.I don't care much about it anymore.People get their horses ready for their one shot to win a B.C. race,and the track is so far out of whack that only half the field(front,back,outside,or inside) has a chance to win.That is pathetic.

Turf horses dont necessarily run well on Poly. Look at Wait A While. Then you also have some horses who can run on dirt and Poly. Look at Street Sense and Quay. Then you could also use Hard Spun as an example as well. The reason why bettors like Keeneland is because of the payoffs that are happening over there. Also, I like the races. I dont care how fast they run the quarter in, and then they sprint home. I think that is more exciting than watching a horse go to the lead and stay there (so called merry-go-round race) like Sinister Minister. The only problem I have is that it will be less than a year since the track surface will be put down. Other than that, it will be a success.

i do wonder one thing....

how does the graded stakes committee justify refusing grade one status to new races, due to not being run under the same conditions for two years (since they're new) but all graded races now on poly, rather than dirt, remain at their current status--but turf moved to dirt due to weather loses its status for that race?

Yes, and look at the horses who beat Wait A While.....

Do you realize that the top three finishers in the Commonwealth all exited one-mile races on the turf?

Wait A While, had far and away the best dirt form of anyone in her race last Saturday.

Hollywood Park's Cushion track surface isn't much better than the hideious polytrack at KEE. To me, that's not the same horse racing I grew up with and have been a fan of for all my life.

I can understand using the surface in the North-East, at cheaper tracks that are sensative to weather....from what I've seen so far, it doesn't belong anywhere else in my personal opinion.

But hey, the interests of the horseman/commerical breeders always trump what the fans and the betting public want.

Don't the interests of the horses matter at all. What you seem to be saying is that certain segments of "the betting public" are more concerned with their pocketbook and their subjective enjoyment of the races than the welfare of the horse - and the safety of the horses should be relegated below the "wants" of the bettors.

What drives me nuts is that everyone automatically assumes "Dirt = bad, Polytrack = good" when it comes to horses' health. And while, yes, it's proven that artificial surfaces are easier on the horses, I don't see a ton of breakdowns in NY racing, and I think it's because the dirt tracks are much deeper than they are anywhere else. I just feel that any track that has a lot of injuries or breakdowns goes "Oh, that's it, we've gotta get polytrack" and takes the easy way out rather than actually using some brainpower and figuring out how to improve the dirt surface.

The bottom line is that, like it or not, the betting public's needs and wants come before the horses' safety. I'm sorry, you might not like hearing it, but it's the cold reality of a gambling-driven sport. If everyone suddenly stopped betting polytrack races, the tracks would have to either figure out a way to make it play more like dirt, or rip it up all together. Do I think it should be that way? Ideally, no. Am I advocating ripping up all polytrack? No. But if you think the wave of tracks moving to artificial surfaces isn't partly or wholly influenced by the fact that people still bet Turfway and Keeneland when they switched, I think you're delusional.

If the horseman really cared about the welfare of the horse---perhaps they would stop over-medicating them.

If the commerical breeders really cared about the welfare of the horses---perhaps they'd put more emphasis on breeding for soundness.

JOEY,how many more times we gunna have to see the hype -build up to the B.C., and then see the track is whack? I am over these biased dirt tracks on B.C. day.On that one day,I want it to be an unbiased track...o.k.? If the Artificial tracks are 'biased" against certain horses,atleast you know that going into the day.You don't have to wait until 3-4 races in.Even if ya see the bias 3-4 races in,people are gunna tell ya there ain't a bias.

Those are separate questions. I agree that these are legitimate issues, but they do not mean that we should disregard the positive impact that Polytrack that has upon the horses' welfare.

The issue is not necessarily "Dirt = bad, Polytrack = good," but rather Polytrack is better when it comes to the horses' health, which you concede. As for breakdowns, keep in mind that what you see in the afternoon is only a portion of the problem. I've experienced more injuries in the morning with our horses than any injuries in the afternoon, and the majority of horsemen attest to the fact that the horses do better over synthetic surfaces.

As for the second bolded portion of your post, I admire your honesty, no matter how wrong-headed and uncaring for the horse that I think the statement is. At the end of the day, the market is speaking about whether it likes the racing - and both Keeneland and Hollywood have seen dramatic increases in handle, despite the number of people I hear saying that they are "boycotting" racing over these surfaces.

Why does , Because its always been done this way =Thats the way it should stay and Change = everyone is going to stop betting ?
How do you know what the stats for breakdowns are at any given racetrack? How do you know how many horses are turned out that dont break down on the track but come back bad at the barn ? You dont , you dont run your hand down horses legs every morning , you dont see the diffirence in the horses legs that train on traditional dirt surface compared to the horses that train on cushion track.
You say betters dont care about horse safety , but I bet they care when fields are reduced to 5 horses and there is only a small margin between odds.
To be honest I dont care if you ever bet another race in your life , because there will always be one more person standing in line at the window or betting from home. Dont fool yourself into believing that me making a living depends on your dollar , because it doesnt , I get paid a wage and my boss gets paid by the head and the people he trains for have more money to blow on horses than they will ever be able to spend before they die. They are not soley in this game for winning purses , they are also in it for the sport and the bragging rights, they all have breeding farms and sell horses and stand them at stud.
So dont bet any artificial surfaces , do what you think is best for you, but when the Hollywood meet starts I want you to prove to me that Cushion track doesnt play fair.

I can tell you're not a bettor---that's for sure.

Bettors like competitive races with full fields---and when you can card them, handle will absolutely thrive. It doesn't matter if the races are run over dirt, turf, poly-track, cotton balls or broken glass.

Horseman are supporting this surface strongly---Eastern trainers sent strings West for HP, and interest to run at KEE has increased greatly.

IMO, Artifical dirt surfaces are great ideas for mid-level and cheap racetracks in weather sensative parts of the country.

Once again though---when horseman stop over-medicating horses, and when commerical breeders start breeding for soundness....I think the people who say they care so much about the welfare of the horse might be taken more seriously.

No, you can't.

Wow....nice touch.

That kind of attitude might get you elected president of a horsemans organization.

I could see this coming. I really do not wish to get into a debate about who's more important to racing: bettors or owners (I am both). Let's stipulate that both are necessary for racing to thrive. What does bother me is the suggestion that either should be placed above the interests of the horse.

Cotton balls? Too funny...

F polytrack

Dont wanna be , if I had my way right now Id be catchin waves in Hawaii , but for now Im just a horse whore.
Dont be so sensitive , he can say the horses soundness doesnt matter and thats ok , but if I say I dont care if he ever bets another race again Im an asswipe. Whatever :rolleyes:

I've always been a bettor, and in the past I've owned a few lower level claiming horses. I agree that both owners and bettors are very important to racing. I don't talk to many current owners, and I know two who detest artifical surfaces. While the consensus of owners may favor artifical surfaces, I'm not so sure it's a strong consensus....and I'm not so sure they aren't basing there approval on what they are hearing from horsemen.

From a bettors prospective, this "welfare of the horse" arguement just seems incredibly hypocritical. When you look at the actions of horseman and commerical breeders over the past few decades---you'll see two groups who have placed themselves MILES above the interests of the horse.

From a racing fans prospective, and I can't speak for everyone when I say this, but I am in the camp that feels these races just plain aren't that fun to watch.

That's one thing I'm rarely accused of being.

Please link me to where I said the horses soundness doesn't matter. .

I didnt say you , I quoted Ateamstupid as you can clearly see in the posting .

I think that your ire about over-medicated horses is properly directed towards a minority of trainers (there is a difference between a trainer and a horseman); most of these individuals train for owners who can afford to spare no expense when it comes to veterinary bills. As you probably know from your experience, owners of low level claiming horses cannot afford four-figure vet bills.

As for commercial breeders, I agree that their overemphasis on speed (perhaps over soundness) has been detrimental to the breed. However, if Polytrack and other artificial surfaces force breeders to plan matings that are more geared towards stamina, I think that's a good thing. Eventually, the marketplace will adjust, and not every son of Storm Cat or Unbridled's Song will get a chance to stand at stud somewhere.

As for your final point, I guess we can agree to disagree. I much prefer racing over the "new" Keeneland where seemingly all horses can get involved in the race than the "old" conveyor-belt Keeneland where horses drawn outside had virtually no chance; just like I enjoy turf racing.

KEE new and old is from one extreme to the other.

Personally, I didn't like watching races at either one from a fan standpoint. The old KEE racetrack was very unfair to horses caught wide, or void of speed. It was my least favorite of the dirt tracks.

From a bettors standpoint---I think the old KEE dirt presented better oppertunites, because you can make note of the horses who ran well against the grain of the track, and bet them back if placed correctly next time out. Or, you could confidently bet against a horse who took advantage of the bias.

I agree with you that not all trainers are as guilty as others when it comes to medication.....and it's unrealistic to expect trainers to all go back to hay, oats, and water.

The popularity of the sport is always taking a hit because nothing is ever to the fans advantage. And certainly, we all know in this industry, that NOTHING IS EVER to the advantage of the bettor.

I agree that the tracks on BC day are usually a disgrace, dirt or otherwise. But I disagree that artificial tracks make it easier to spot the biases. I've seen days at Keeneland where one day, it's playing to speed and the next day, it's playing to closers, or even one race and then the next race. I think unlike on those big days, where it's pretty easy to see a dead rail or a live rail, on artificial tracks, biases can change at the drop of a hat.

Look, let's get one thing straight. I'm not saying that the horses' health doesn't matter to me, I'm saying that I think the betting public's needs and wants come before it in general, and that the recent wave of switches to artificial surfaces has a lot to do with the fact that people apparently aren't going to not bet it. What I would like to see is an improvement in the safety of dirt tracks, not a bunch of racetracks throwing up their hands and saying "there's nothing we can do, put up the fake stuff, they'll bet it anyway." You may say that it's impossible to make dirt tracks totally safe, and I guess you would know better than I do, but I find it hard to believe that there's nothing that can be done.

I think this comes down to a bettors vs. horsemen argument, and I have no interest in being the insensitive bad guy, because just like I won't bet polytrack because the results are too flukey, I won't bet a track that has a million breakdowns and sore horses because I don't want to support a track that isn't doing enough to ensure its horses' safety.

Once again, I love horses and I care very much about their safety. Don't twist my words into something different.

Ateam, dude I understand where you are coming from ok , I get a lil hot headed sometimes.
On a whole , not just for racing but for all around training the synthetic material that I have ridden on and trained on doesnt have as hard an impact on the horses legs as traditional dirt. The horses seem happier training on it , they dont seem to develope problems as quickly , which means in the long run horses will stay in training longer , race more often with better results.
I dont know what Polytrack is like yet but I will in a few months at Del Mar.