16 snappers this month, out of that 25% have broke down on poly. There are 3 polytracks running races now.

you're kidding me with this right? I mean you are not actually celebrating the death of 3 horses because it suits your argument about polytrack...that is so classless I don't even have words for it.

You misunderstood him. He didn't mean the horses breaking down was great stuff. He was sarcastically saying that polytrack is great stuff.

Theres a zero percent chance Oracle was saying a horse breaking down was "great stuff".

She knows that but shes trying to start trouble.
I've never celebrated a horse breaking down, they are inocent creatures.
My point was to illustrate that this stuff is not the answer we are having jammed down our throats.
Quite frankly, I think Janks had it right on ATRAB this summer when she said that TRAINERS need not be running sore horses.
Perhaps my critic can tell me(because she knows OH so much about this) how many guys in California have increased the work patterns of their horses to every 6 days instead of every 7 days(which was too much to begin with!!!). I can name two who have and it sickens me.
Thats really my point, this stuff is a crock of **** and if it all it does is make trainers think they can go out there and pound em even harder than they already do, we will end up in EVEN worse shape.
Watching horses break down makes me nauseous.
And the inference that i would celebrate this, for any cause, is sickening.
I'd maybe celebrate one of these little crooked pinheads getting a whack, but never an innocent creature. Really "classy" to make an accusation that I'm celebrating rather to ask me to clarify my intent. I'm sarcastic most of the time, and this time was no different. WHen I said this stuff is great, I was referring to the polytrack. Racing's "salvation" that doesn't seem to be doing much except lining some pockets and causing trainers to overwork horses who were overworked in the first place.

As I've said before, and having deleted the silliness, I won't have nonsense from elsewhere spilling over here... So we're ending that portion of the discussion please...

As to the matter at hand, the objectionable element of the 'three breakdowns, three days' post centered around the use of the word 'snappers'... It disgusted me and infuriated Bethani, who works hands-on with horses FOR A LIVING.

I privately and quietly asked those that used the word to refrain from using it again as I think it is callous and demonstrates to race fans a portrait of thoughtlessness. Rather than simply acknowledge the inappropriateness though, I can see this is being taken in another direction. Bethani can address Mike's thoughts herself, but I'll simply say that the germination of the issue is the word 'snappers'... IMO, using that term rendered the rest of the post indefensible as to intent.

And since she won't say it herself but was clearly challenged above as to credibility: Bethani unquestionably knows more, and will continue to know more, about racehorses, (and most other equine), their physiology, care and maintainence, than virtually anyone here.

Oracle, You have said several times that polytrack is just a con game. Do you have any evidence of that?

There is a ton of evidence that shows exactly the opposite. The horses are staying much sounder and the fields are bigger as a result. You can talk to any tainer out here and they will tell you that they see a huge difference in their horses. The horses come back every morning and their legs are cold and tight, wheras before they would come back with heat in their feet and ankles. For you to call it a con game is absurd.

Its ABSOLUTELY a con game as is has been MARKETED!!!
Its been marketed as "maintenance free" wrong!!! Its been marketed as averting catastrohic breakdowns WRONG!!
Now you can tell me in reality we should know that these thinsg arent true, but both I and Sent To Std have shown you the presentations and websites by soem of these marketers, and they are lying.
It does need maintenance, it can be screwed up, and breakdowns will continue to happen.
So, its a con game.
Anything sold with tricks and half truths or flat out lies, is a con game.

Thank paispg and Rupert for reasoned responses. And tx Kasept for reminding us about decorum.

I highly doubt that they said that there will never be a catostrophic breakdown on the surface. I don't know what their exact quote was but I'm sure that they did not guarantee that a horse would never break down.

And the surface is practically maintenance free, so I don't think that they lied abot that.

The main problem is that they may not have done enough testing in adverse weather conditions. Based on the problems at Woodbine and Turfway, I do wonder how well this product holds up in really cold weather.

Anyway, if you don't like polytrack, that is fine. That's your business. But the vast majority of owners and trainers love it. They have been very happy with it so far. The horses have been staying much sounder. That's all that really matters.

Rupert,

Do the three trianers I spoke with today count towards the "any trainer" you mentioned? I spoke with 3 today and each were less than satisfied with the clumping, and uneven surface at TWP.

I can name 5 guys who have told me its ok to train on but that they hate it to race on.
Of course they can't tell the press that.
In any case, its been marketed as maintenance free and I can post links like Stud has, and its not stopping breakdowns.
And waht about Sadlers comments last week about the foot problems?
I can show you 2-4 trainers in Cali who now zoom every 6 days instead of every 7. They think its a liscense to beat on em even harder than they were already beating on em.
It aint gonna help em in the long run.

I have said that there have been real problems at Woodbine and Turfway. I don't know if polytrack(with the current ingredients) works well in really cold weather. For all I know, it may not hold up in cold weather. They may have a serious problem. I have read about the problems you are talking about. I'm not surprised that you have talked to trainers that are concerned with the clumping at Turfway.

The only thing I'm saying is that it works well in places where the weather is moderate. Here at Hollywood Park, it is a huge improvement over what we had before.

Richie,we are getting fields of 10,12,and 14 horses out here in December.Something is going right.

And are you telling me that a better surface couldnt have been established at 1/4 the price by ripping out the cushion and putting down a new surface as well?
Magna spent 5 mill supoosedly to redo Gulf(and part of that was the cost of reconfiguration) and the horsemen rave about the surface there now.
Its a money game with this stuff.

A lot of guys out here are a little concerend that the track has gotten so fast. They weren't expecting it ot be so fast. It wasn't nearly this fast a month ago. The good news is that the track still seems to be very safe.

I read Sadler's comments. If we start hearing this same thing from several trainers, then I would start to be concerned. But I'm not going to be too concerned about one trainer. Sadler paid $800,000 for that horse. That's a lot of money to pay for a horse that is by a sire(Millenium Wind) that stands for $5,000. We don't know what Sadler's motives are. Maybe Sadler doesn't want to take the blame so he is blaming the track surface. Who knows? I'm not saying that this is the case. I have no idea. Sadler may be correct about the track. Maybe we will start to hear similar things from other trainers. But as of right now, 99% of the guys at Hollywood are happy with the surface.

I gotcha Rupert.

I dont understand why a track like Hollywood wouldnt just reinstall a conventional dirt track. I think all of these tracks jumped the gun on mass installation of synthetic surfaces. Like Oracle said.... I think they are fine to train over, I just dont care for the racing over them. What really pisses me off is the tracks cracking down on the trainers to the point they cant speak their mind. If they are going to have a polytrack they need to take the trainers opinions to heart, work together to perfect the surface. When Poly was first laid at Turfway the jockeys bitched about the kick back, they wanted it watered down....managment basically said if you dont like it dont ride here. That is the attitude from Turfway, whether the people in here want to believe it or not.

Yes, that is exactly right.

Richi you guys who use pedigree to judge a horse who has already run faster on the numbers than 99% of horses who will start from that crop just lose me.
His debut was VERY nice, and I don't think they overpaid based on that race.

I will tell you this much.With the weather SOCAL has from April -December,if you add in the cushion track(I don't know about what synthetic Anita is using,)this area is gunna have a lot (a whole lot) of healthy happy horses(and they are gunna feel like running more often, too.)We are gunna have big fields with highly competitive racing.It works here(may not work everywhere.)