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Big difference between commerical failure and failure in general. Most start at such a high stud fee that the expectations are insane to begin with. |
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Louisborg, Victorious Ami, Separato, Red Lifesaver, Rousing Victory. Now that being said....I think BB is correct to say that Victory Gallop has not been a real big success as a sire. Being a sire of decent claimers and the occasional small stakes winner is fine, but as Oracle suggests, it isn't exactly what most people hope for when they send a champion like VG to the shed. The list on the whole I think is rather good, but I have to take some issue with Affirmed. The Tin Man Flawlessly Affirmed Success Quiet Resolve Affluent Zoman Peteski Those were all MULTIPLE G1 winners by Affirmed which makes me wonder just how many MULTIPLE G1 winners you need to sire before you are no longer considered a failure. Add those names to his long list of other graded stakes winners and his success as a broodmare sire.....and I think calling him a failure is a tad inaccurate. |
I opened my 2006 stallion register, which is complete to the end of October,2005. Victory Gallop had at that time three crops of racing age, the oldest being 4; from 192 named foals, he had 67% runners (only 11 of 54 2yos), 49% winners (5 of those 11 2yos) and 10 SWs (0 2yo). Obviously, he isn't a sire of early maturing stock. If you consider only his 3 and 4yos, he had 80% runners, 65% winners from foals, and 7% SWs, which are not bad numbers for a very young stud career. No homeruns yet, just a lot of steady singles and doubles.
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Not one of these horses has close to the pedigree, conformation, and race record of Bernardini. Not even close. Some on your list were not too bad either. Just to let you know, the mares have a little to do with it too. A horse like Bernardini, mainly because of his pedigree on top and bottom, will attract nothing but the best. |
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I keep looking at the pedigree of Bernardini and I'm frankly confounded by all these claims of "best pedigree ever".....I see nothing that I don't see in most stakes level thoroughbreds. AP Indy (who I'm not in love with as some "super sire") is known for his pedigree...Seattle Slew atop the great Secretariat broodmare Weekend Surprise. Good enough! But his dam side leaves me less than excited...Cara Rafaela is the daughter of Quiet American (ho hum) so you get the Fappiano (double ho hum), Mr P, RAN line that until this year was considered a kiss of death for the Derby...Oil Fable, Cara's dam out of The Bid (not a rousing success at stud). What's all the fuss????? |
Cigar and Precisionist are at the top of the list:rolleyes:
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How you don't love AP Indy is pretty remarkable. He is a Seattle Slew out of a Secretariat Mare. It looks like he will have sired 2 of the last 4 Horses of the Year. |
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He may not have enough races under his belt when he retires to be an "all time great", but you cant say that he is not the total package. Great breeding, confirmation... he has it all. Oh yea and 3 grade 1 wins and 2 grade 2 wins in 7 starts doesnt hurt either. |
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Again, don't put words into my mouth...I never said the pedigree was bad, I simply question those claiming it's somehow superior to all others...simply isn't so! I listed three horses with imo better pedigrees, I could if I wanted to take the time probably list a dozen or more. Bernardini's confirmation, movement and racing prowess were NOT the topic here...only his pedigree! I have never said he wasn't a special horse! |
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... you cite two ... neither of whom remotely established a male line or had a sizable string of graded stakes winners. They were failures as stallions. The only name on my original list that I would withdraw is Ack Ack ... whose male line still exists ... albeit by a thread. I'm defining success by racing performance of their offspring ... and the establishment of a male line. Financial success doesn't count ... because most of that occurs immediaitely on syndication ... and disappears when the kids can't run. |
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None of them even remotely came close to establishing a successful male line ... nor did any of them sire a long string of successful graded stakes winners ... that's how. Siring allowance winners that you cashed a bet on is not the measure of a succcessful stallion. |
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None of their names will likely appear as the male progenitor of future champions. |
Just a few more recent runners who have pedigrees I'd prefer to Bernardini:
Fusaichi Pegasus Aptitude AP Valentine Medaglia d'Oro Saarland War Emblem Birdstone...you want a special dam side, his dam, Dear Birdie ranks with Toussaud, a Reines-de-Course and Blue Hen! Noble Causeway...that one is up for debate perhaps. |
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It's extremely rare for a stallion's offspring to get better as he gets older ... so it's very, very unlikely that Victory Gallop will ever produce a series of G1 or other graded stakes winners ... nor that any of his sons will become successful stallions. |
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... not by the number of bets you cash on claiming and allowance races. Sires of Runners: There is a statistic called the Lifetime Average Earnings Index (Lifetime AEI) ... which provides a good measure of success as a sire of runners. Only stallions with Lifetime AEI's above 3.00 are generally considered to be successful sires of runners. I don't have that figure for all of the stallions I cited ... but I doubt if any of them are anywhere near 3.00. Also important is the percentage of stakes winners ... which should be above 10% ... and as high as 15% or more for the great stallions. None of the stallions I cited comes close to those figures. Sires of Sires: This becomes evident when a stallions sons go to stud. It's a bit early for some of the more recent horses on my list ... but it's highly doubtful that any of them will produce one or more sons who are success at stud. Broodmare Sires: Same as Sires of Sires ... but on the female side. |
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... of the nearly 70 horses on it ... you cite only 5 possible exceptions ... and provide no data ... none whatsoever ... to support your insipid ... as always ... assertions. Hey Annie-Phonie ... why don't you cite their Lifetime AEI's ... or their SW% ... or their Broodmare CI's ... or their lists of successful sons at stud? Huh ... huh ... huh? Or could it be .. once again .. that you're full of crap ... and haven't the slightest idea of what you're saying? |
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... it's the emotional reaction that counts. |
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