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-   -   unions killing jobs... (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43600)

Riot 08-25-2011 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone Lord (Post 802753)
Yes, nice self-portrait. Post something new about yourself.

PS - that is an obvious fake, but hey, it was a good attempt.

Coach Pants 08-25-2011 12:10 PM
90 grand a year. Baller status. They should get rid of that union and give the money to the executives. The slaves can get a free dinner for two gift certificate *with the purchase of another dinner for two at Red Lobster.

These people are rich. Rabble Rabble Rabble.

Danzig 08-25-2011 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 802749)
Funny, in many other first world countries, every worker gets benefits like that.

It's called, "normal".

I laugh at the demonization of unions, by people that hardly mentioned them a year ago <g>

Oh, well, when the demonization of the Muslim Kenyan Non-Citizen Black President has been disproved, and the demonization of "death panel health care" has been disproved, you have to go with something new. Last year the Koch Brothers and the RGA and ALEC decided it would be unions, and passed out the talking points sheets at the annual convention for the governors to initiate at the state level. Politics power grabs. So it goes. GOP-TV (Faux News) got the memo, too, and started in training their listeners that unions are filled with "evil thugs". Those kindergarten teachers and 9-11 NY firefighters, yeah, those thugs! <g>

The GOP has always been good at messaging. Hell, Rupert Murdoch supported Obama, but Roger Ailes had a hissy fit of hate, and was making so much money for Rupert, he let Ailes run with the Obama-hate on Faux. The Tea Party is causing the regular GOP no end of pain, as the TP (formed by GOP operatives) got out of control and talk the talk, but fail to vote the vote the right way in Congress, but the GOP is taking them down one by one and regaining control (Rove against Perry and Bachmann, for example). You need compliance in the underlings to survive in the current GOP theocracy. The power elite aren't giving up any of it, especially to a bunch of fools who don't believe in climate change or evolution.
most workers get high pay for not much work? i'm sure that's not what you meant.
thing is, although unions aren't 'killing jobs' in the case that chuck cited, they are most definitely in the wrong. the tack they are taking that boeing is in the wrong for starting up another plant is absolutely ridiculous. but, their position is that if it's non union, it's bad is ridiculous.
a non-union job isn't necessarily a bad job, or underpaid, or where people get abused. nor are all union jobs good, high paying jobs.
btw, koch owns a company (perhaps several?) with both union and non union sites. the unionized plant here has been thru several contract negotiations since koch bought them, with no problems at all. no attempts to crush unions, altho that was all the gossip back when they made the purchase.


as for dino's post, he probably makes the same money as his union brothers. but he doesn't mention that!

Calzone Lord 08-25-2011 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 802754)
PS - that is an obvious fake, but hey, it was a good attempt.
Lighten up, Grandma.

Riot 08-25-2011 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 802758)
most workers get high pay for not much work? i'm sure that's not what you meant.
Yes, true, most workers in other first world countries get earlier retirement, work less hours a week, get paid maternity leave, get more paid vacation, and better pensions in the US. Not that they only work "5 hours a week".

Calling all union workers freeloaders is nonsensical. Yes, it certainly applies to some (I grew up watching a job in Chicago take 6 guys: 2 to actually work, 2 to stand around and "supervise", and 2 to report back to headquarters)

Quote:
btw, koch owns a company (perhaps several?) with both union and non union sites. the unionized plant here has been thru several contract negotiations since koch bought them, with no problems at all. no attempts to crush unions, altho that was all the gossip back when they made the purchase.
I think people forget that, when any union has terrific benefits, it's the company that negotiated that with the union. It takes two. And yes, many unions and companies have excellent relations.

Many company workers repeatedly refuse to unionize (Toyota in America, for example) because the company treats them well with excellent benefits already. There is no need.

For example, in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker demanded unions start paying for more of their health care and benefits as the state had a budget deficit. The unions immediately agreed to 100% of the cuts.

Walker busted the unions as "evil money-grabbing thugs" anyways. Sometimes it's the company that are really the lying thugs.

Riot 08-25-2011 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone Lord (Post 802759)
Lighten up, Grandma.
It was kinda funny. I sure wouldn't have done that, just to get something to post on YouTube!

jms62 08-25-2011 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants (Post 802756)
90 grand a year. Baller status. They should get rid of that union and give the money to the executives. The slaves can get a free dinner for two gift certificate *with the purchase of another dinner for two at Red Lobster.

These people are rich. Rabble Rabble Rabble.
They do that already... Everything the Execs want they simply say without it they can not create jobs. Once they get it they create jobs all right in India and China and line thier pockets. They have the system gamed and in Check Mate because NO ONE has our backs. I'm very comfortable however I am not too naive to realize as we spiral down the cesspool of the third world sstatus. It will affect everyone... Even Joey who wants no restrictions on business whatsoever.

Clip-Clop 08-25-2011 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 802749)
Funny, in many other first world countries, every worker gets benefits like that.

It's called, "normal".

I laugh at the demonization of unions, by people that hardly mentioned them a year ago <g>

Oh, well, when the demonization of the Muslim Kenyan Non-Citizen Black President has been disproved, and the demonization of "death panel health care" has been disproved, you have to go with something new. Last year the Koch Brothers and the RGA and ALEC decided it would be unions, and passed out the talking points sheets at the annual convention for the governors to initiate at the state level. Politics power grabs. So it goes. GOP-TV (Faux News) got the memo, too, and started in training their listeners that unions are filled with "evil thugs". Those kindergarten teachers and 9-11 NY firefighters, yeah, those thugs! <g>

The GOP has always been good at messaging. Hell, Rupert Murdoch supported Obama, but Roger Ailes had a hissy fit of hate, and was making so much money for Rupert, he let Ailes run with the Obama-hate on Faux. The Tea Party is causing the regular GOP no end of pain, as the TP (formed by GOP operatives) got out of control and talk the talk, but fail to vote the vote the right way in Congress, but the GOP is taking them down one by one and regaining control (Rove against Perry and Bachmann, for example). You need compliance in the underlings to survive in the current GOP theocracy. The power elite aren't giving up any of it, especially to a bunch of fools who don't believe in climate change or evolution.
Kind of a double standard no? Unions are firefighters, police and kidy-garden teachers, but Corporations are evil and are not made up of workers and investors. The reason people are anti-union is they have seen them destroy the automobile industry and the majority of public schools in this country and are concerned about the rest.

Riot 08-25-2011 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clip-Clop (Post 802772)
The reason people are anti-union is they have seen them destroy the automobile industry and the majority of public schools in this country and are concerned about the rest.
Unions have not single-handedly destroyed anything (let's talk frankly about the utterly incompetent and terrible management of some of the automobile companies that lead them to the brink far beyond any union pensions they gave to their employees). Let alone the public school system (witness the destruction of "no child left behind" and lack of funding). That's absurd hyperbole to blame the unions for corporate malfeasance. But it is exactly what the GOP wants you to think.

"Sure, we brought the US to the very brink of economic disaster with our Wall Street buddies but ... it was the unions fault! It was the Democrats fault! We are awesome business managers! In fact, what we need is even less regulation, and even less accountability! Then give us what little you have left, Social Security and Medicare, and let us manage that for you, too!" - the Republican Party, speaking for their corporate owners.

jms62 08-25-2011 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clip-Clop (Post 802772)
Kind of a double standard no? Unions are firefighters, police and kidy-garden teachers, but Corporations are evil and are not made up of workers and investors. The reason people are anti-union is they have seen them destroy the automobile industry and the majority of public schools in this country and are concerned about the rest.
I used to be as anti-union as they come however the pendulum has moved so far in favor of business and they have no qualms about destroying your life for the enrichment of a few. My view of unions has changed.

Clip-Clop 08-25-2011 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 802778)
I used to be as anti-union as they come however the pendulum has moved so far in favor of business and they have no qualms about destroying your life for the enrichment of a few. My view of unions has changed.
It isn't the people in the unions, it is the union management that fosters the vitriol. Nobody hates teachers, except of course good teachers that cannot stand the other 80% of hangers on just collecting their protected jobs that require very little energy and even less accountability.

Riot 08-25-2011 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clip-Clop (Post 802782)
Nobody hates teachers, except of course good teachers that cannot stand the other 80% of hangers on just collecting their protected jobs that require very little energy and even less accountability.
You can't be taken seriously when you accuse 80% of teachers in this country of being incompetent hangers-on. That's absurd, that's without any factual basis. I call bullshit: Prove it. Provide some facts or numbers to support such an extraordinary contention and hatred for teachers.

Clip-Clop 08-25-2011 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 802777)
Unions have not single-handedly destroyed anything (let's talk frankly about the utterly incompetent and terrible management of some of the automobile companies that lead them to the brink far beyond any union pensions they gave to their employees). Let alone the public school system (witness the destruction of "no child left behind" and lack of funding). That's absurd hyperbole to blame the unions for corporate malfeasance. But it is exactly what the GOP wants you to think.

"Sure, we brought the US to the very brink of economic disaster with our Wall Street buddies but ... it was the unions fault! It was the Democrats fault! We are awesome business managers! In fact, what we need is even less regulation, and even less accountability! Then give us what little you have left, Social Security and Medicare, and let us manage that for you, too!" - the Republican Party, speaking for their corporate owners.
"Lack of funding" is the absurd. It costs more to send a kid to public school in Newark than it does to Yale. Money isn't the cure, though that is what the all powerful NJEA (insert any other state here) would have you think. Don't stop believing!

Antitrust32 08-25-2011 01:24 PM
my mom is a teacher and she told me the thought that bad teachers in unions cant be fired is not true. she said 5 teachers were fired from her school last year.

Clip-Clop 08-25-2011 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 802783)
You can't be taken seriously when you accuse 80% of teachers in this country of being incompetent hangers-on. That's absurd, that's without any factual basis. I call bullshit: Prove it. Provide some facts or numbers to support such an extraordinary contention and hatred for teachers.
Two teacher friends use that number, just sharing their thoughts. They are both good teachers, cannot stand the union. The combined quote from these two would be surmised as, "the young kids come in here and all they want is tenure and summers off, they think 45K/yr is all the money in the world. The old teachers know they cannot be fired and no longer care, just plodding along toward retirement." This was not everyone but the 80% came from two individuals from separate school systems. I like teachers.

Riot 08-25-2011 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clip-Clop (Post 802785)
"Lack of funding" is the absurd. It costs more to send a kid to public school in Newark than it does to Yale. Money isn't the cure, though that is what the all powerful NJEA (insert any other state here) would have you think. Don't stop believing!
Don't you get it? We spend more money on education than other countries, and our education sucks. We are like 9th in reading internationally, and down in the mid-twenties in math and science. It's pathetic. We're incompetent educationally on the international stage. Our kids can't even afford college - and we just took more money from programs that help kids afford it. Republicans want to strip and privatize it, giving the last money left to corporations for making profit off it.

Education is currently being attacked and even mocked as unnecessary. We have multiple candidates for President of the United States that publicly and proudly simply disregard science and education in favor of cults. It's un-effing-believable. We are an international laughingstock, pitied by other countries as they have watched us fall further and further behind.

You blame the teachers unions. Nonsense. It's the targeted funding to programs that work. Bush -yes, Bush - threw tons of money into the useless No Child Left Behind program that encouraged the very thing you decry. Yes, we need proper funding, appropriate funding as part of trying to get our pathetically uneducated kids educated.

The Republican party is desperately stripping every last cent they can out of what's left of this country, to give to private business, and that's pretty much Social Security, Medicare, and school funding. And they can't do it unless they demonize what stands in their way: teachers, firefighters, policemen ("public unions").

Clip-Clop 08-25-2011 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 802787)
my mom is a teacher and she told me the thought that bad teachers in unions cant be fired is not true. she said 5 teachers were fired from her school last year.
depending on location. good for that school district though.

Antitrust32 08-25-2011 01:26 PM
No Child left behind was good intentions from Bush, but not a good policy.

Antitrust32 08-25-2011 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clip-Clop (Post 802791)
depending on location. good for that school district though.
She teaches in the berbs outside Philly.

Clip-Clop 08-25-2011 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 802789)
Don't you get it? We spend more money on education than other countries, and our education sucks. We are like 9th in reading internationally, and down in the mid-twenties in math and science. It's pathetic. We're incompetent educationally on the international stage.

You blame the teachers unions. Nonsense. It's the targeted funding to programs that work. Bush -yes, Bush - threw tons of money into the useless No Child Left Behind program that encouraged the very thing you decry. Yes, we need proper funding, appropriate funding.
I hate Obama, Bush, Congress, Senate and Clinton all the same. I blindly follow no one's agenda but my own. Pointing the finger at the NCLB is ludicrous, at least it was an effort to hold teachers accountable and was authored by Miller and Boehner if my memory is correct. Also was very popular among both parties (no doubt the left side was lobbied to love it since it would get $$$ into the pockets of the unions).


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