So are you saying you think AP Indy was better than Cigar? I can see trying to find a better horse than Cigar, but AP Indy would be quite a reach IMO.

Holy Bull and Silver Charm would be in my Top 3. But I would put Cigar at #1.

are you trying to suggest that Smarty Jones and / or Funny Cide are the best living race horses?

Yes.

Keep in mind AP only raced until the end of his 3yo season.

Certainly you'd agree Indy was tons better as a 3yo than Cigar.

I'd also put Skip Away and Gentlemen (on the days he showed up) on the list of horses that would have beat Cigar.

Candy Ride would have pummeled Cigar.

Yes, but wouldn't you agree that Holy Bull's 3yo season was better than AP Indy's?

No. They never pranced in the paddock before a race, were the subject of love letters from Jay Hovdey, or inspired their fans to show up at the track wearing outfits in the owners' colors.

Unfortunately he's no longer eligible for consideration in this category.

Cigar

One can make a strong case for either.

I forgot that he died last year.

It's all moot anyways. Indian Charlie is still alive.

If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?

It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all.

That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important.

She will undoubtedly hold the title forever because I can only assume that she is immune to death.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. If GZ had the same kind of schedule that CIGAR had, how many races would he have won or would have missed because he couldn't have kept up?!~

:rolleyes:

So it's OK for you to speculate, but not others.

No - just showing there's another side to shoulda would coulda. Gotta go with what's been done - not what anyone thinks MIGHT have been done.

One of the things that's admirable about Cigar is that he held up to the rigors of a strong campaign. Horses like Candy Ride and Ghostzapper, who were brilliant when healthy, have to be judged somewhat differently.

I don't think a then 6YO Cigar losing to Skip Away and losing the BCC while racing against a strong inside bias at Woodbine should tarnish what he accomplished in two years.

The flip side to that is putting Ghostzapper in Cigar's races.

If he had to contend with horses like Louis Quatorze, Siphon, Urgent Request, Honour and Glory, etc. on the front end, he probably would have been kept sprinting.

Ghostzapper didn't need to be on the front. He was just so much better than his competition, Castellano would often let him roll and he'd still have plenty left in the stretch.

As has been said before, 'greatness' is loosely defined. Some think it's longevity, some think it's brilliance, some think it's a combination of the two. Ghostzapper was as brilliant as any horse in the last 30 years, so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider him the best living racehorse without getting into a dozen pages of hypothetical matchups.

Didn't Bobby Frankel go to great lengths to convince Ken Ramsey to keep Roses In May from dueling with Ghostzapper in the BC Classic? At least that's what Steve Haskin said. Seems like Frankel was aware that the colt had his limits.

Looking (crudely I'll admit) at Cigar's races, he routinely ran in 9-10f races with :45+ and :46+ half-mile fractions. Ghostzapper, who made all of 2 starts around two turns, barely edged the good, but hardly great, St. Liam when encountering those sorts of fractions.

I would think he'd be vulnerable in at least some of those races Cigar ran in.

Well, isn't that sort of the intent of this thread?

If you're opposed to getting involved in "hypothetical matchup" debates, maybe refrain from piggy-backing off miraja's posts.

If that's true, and I'd hardly take what Haskin says as gospel these days, it likely had less to do with tactical limitations and more with the fact that Castellano's hand was forced when he drew the rail. Ghostzapper still had to set pretty quick fractions and was never challenged. If I remember the quote, it was more along the lines of 'a speed duel isn't good for either horse', but really, it would've been a lot worse for Roses in May. Assuming that Haskin's story is accurate and that Ramsey heeded Frankel's advice, it was the right move. Roses in May never could have run the race that Ghostzapper did.

Got it, so I can't defend an opinion about a horse's ability without an accompanying desire to get into hours of debate over pretend races.