It's hard to compare different generations but I have a major problem with Bid being below any horse that has run since the 60's.

That's been my point from early on.

For the record, Gallorette ran 72 times compiling a record of 21-20-13. She ran against her own sex a whopping 17 times. 17. One more time for clarity... SEVENTEEN. Versus females, 17/8-4-5 including:

Acorn Stakes (1945)
Black-Eyed Susan Stakes (1945)
Delaware Oaks (1945)
Beldame Stakes (1946)
Top Flight (1948)

She ran against males 55 times with a record of 13-16-8 against them at distances between 6f and 10f. She faced Stymie regularly. Assault. Pavot. Conniver. Among her wins:

Metropolitan Handicap (1946)
Brooklyn Handicap (1946)
Wilson Stakes (1947, 1948)
Queens County Handicap (1947)
Carter Handicap (1948)
Whitney Handicap (1948)

The notion that Zenyatta is even an equal of Gallorette is utterly preposterous.

It is awfully hard to look past all those seconds and thirds. :rolleyes:

That may be so, but it is equally as preposterous, if you believe the other females belong on the list, to suggest that Zenyatta doesn't belong in the top 100 or top 125

I left that open for interpretation.

Personally, as I've said a number of times, I think she would have acquitted herself famously if given the opportunity. Had she been campaigned with true historical proportion in mind, she likely would have built a far more impressive body of work with clear indications of her greatness, than the hollow slate that was foisted on her.

A horse like Count Fleet simply shouldn't be rated ahead of horses like him and Dr. Fager.

Count Fleet lost a couple times to a horse named Occupation as a 2yo. Occupation was a nice sprinter who won four different Futurities at age two. He got sidelined and didn't come back till Count Fleet was retired - he just held on to win at Hawthorne on return.

Here's who Count Fleet was beating as a 3-year-old ...



Blue Swords was 2nd to him in the Derby and Preakness. He never won a single race after age 2.



This horse was 3rd in the Derby and 2nd in the Withers to Count Fleet.




This horse was 2nd to Count Fleet in a 3 horse Belmont...albeit beaten 20 lengths.


Count Fleet wasn't a slow horse by any means - it appears as though he was running figures in a 105-to-114 range at age 3.

He never ran again after the Belmont Stakes ... how do you compare a horse like that with something that runs about 130 figures carrying 130lbs like Bid and Dr. Fager as older horses?.. and they actually faced real competition and curb stomped their competition a lot of the time.

If you're talking about best overall horse - there's no female horse that belongs in the top 50 - possibly even top 100.

Festin had Zenyatta's running style .. lets pretend he was female and Shireffs was spotting him against Taptam, Lethal Heat, Brownie Points, Anbaa's Creations etc.

Festin would kill those horses. He was clearly a better deep closer than Zenyatta. Where would you put Festin on a list of greatest horses ever?

That's why I qualified my statement by stating, "if you believe the other females belong on the list." I think any list such as this probably should include females, albeit with an acknowledgement that most of the females' performances were graded "on a curve" because of their gender.

......no, but if you think festin was a better horse....:zz::zz:

Even if Festin wasn't a better horse than Zenyatta, it was still a pretty good pull.

Festin would have trounced Zenyatta ... Zenyatta's own sire Street Cry... also didn't come around fully till age 4 like her .. but Street Cry would have absolutely demolished Zenyatta.





STREET CRY




The difference is that Zenyatta is running against sheer equine filth of the female variety ... and Street Cry and Festin ran against excellent top older males like Left Bank and Sakhee - and In Excess, Farma Way, Unbridled, Black Tie Affair etc.

Festin needed a very fast pace - and only really got it once. He was hindered in the Black Tie Affair Classic by a slow pace.

Festin would have routinely beaten Zenyatta, as DrugS said, and pretty much nobody has even heard of him.

But, Zenyatta is, apparently, the 18th best horse of all-time....and those that disagree are haters and worthy of derision.

By the way.....you may be wrong about Count Fleet. There are old-time figure makers that believe he might have been the fastest.

sigh.

I don't know about that one man.

He ran just six times at age 3 - in five stakes races.

His wins in the Wood, Derby, Preakness, and Withers - I'm pretty confident are not faster than 114 tops. There are a lot of other races to work with on those cards.

The race I think these old-time figure makers might be refering to - is his 25 length win in the Belmont in his final start.

I posted the form of the horse who finished 2nd earlier in this thread - he's a slug - and the 3rd place finisher was even worse. It was just a field of 3. They make Twice A Prince and My Gallant look like Ghostzapper and Formal Gold.

There was another route the day Count Fleet won the Belmont - also at 12fs - it was a MSW race that went 7.20 full seconds slower. However, it was a pretty horrid looking MSW race on paper. This was the workman like winner ...



Count Fleet only ran six times at age three - never faced an older horse - faced a horrid looking 3yo crop - and if he did run supersonic fast in one race, he did it at 12fs against two laughing stock plugs in a race its not easy to make a number for.

He didn't do enough to be considered the 5th best American horse ever. Had he not become injured after the Belmont - and took it to older horses - than yeah, maybe.