I think Crist used them as well in his arguments...so yea some people do, and my point was if the best in the business do to influence the public with their reasoning than they should be at least somewhat accurate.

The 98 Beyer for American Lion in the ILLI Derby is obviously too low.

If you believe the 98 .....

* 2nd place finisher Yawanna Twist regressed a couple points. 2nd time router with a nice trip and being bet hard for Dutrow.

* 3rd place finisher Backtalk went backwards 12 points off his last number

* 4th place finisher Turf Melody went backwards 16 points off of his last number

* 5th place finisher Dave in Dixie went backwards 12 points off of his last number and 23 points off of his two back number.

* 6th place finisher Boulder Creek went backwards 10 points.

* 7th place finisher Stephen's Got Hope went backwards 25 points.

* 8th place finisher Game Ball went backwards 18 points.

The track at Hawthorne was incredible slow ... I wonder if they cut this race loose to get it where they could make it as slow as they did .. or if they just had virtually every single horse running below form all day long?

Of course Yawanna Twist and Turf Melody ran worse considering the trips/set-ups they had last time. Yawana Twist has had unbelievably good trips in all his races. This trip was, believe it or not, his toughest. How were Turf Melody's numbers before the Gotham?

Backtalk figures to run worse going longer.

Dave in Dixie? That's funny.

The race was dominated on the front end which makes it harder for the closers to have run to their figures. However, those are some big changes. But, it wasn't much of a field.

What about all of the other route races that day?

What about them?

And why should I care?

Do you honestly think either of the first two finishers rate to run figures in the 90s going long in the future?

How about Backtalk? You figure he will run a lot of figs in the mid 80s going 1 1/8 down the road? If he runs in the Derby he makes last very tough to achieve for the others. Hell, he's slow going his best distances.

Oh, wait, I got it. You're just pissed that the figure came back what it did because you wanted to post some " look at me " thread about why the figure wouldn't be predictive.

Don't worry.....you had a decent backup plan.

But don't worry about it....you can always go to escoteric and post something about one of your brother's ex-girlfriends and a sock.

Or, better yet, say something about " why all the hating on DrugS. "

16 Beyer points at 8.5F is 1.6 seconds, or about 9 lengths. If the trouble she had in the Oaks was worth 3-4 lengths, and moving to dirt was worth 5-6 lengths (certainly reasonable assumptions, no?) the number makes a lot of sense.

She is absolutely a good horse, and the one to beat on April 30th. Synthetics make her "not as good" a horse as she is on dirt like it does to a lot of horses. Others have about equal ability on both surfaces. A third group move way up on synthetics. The same phenomenon occurs on turf- plenty of turfers can't run a lick on dirt, and excellent dirt horses just look like they're running in place over turf. It's been proven time and again over the last 4 years that synthetics are NOT a replacement for dirt, but rather a 3rd surface, and must be treated as such in both handicapping through speed figures or visual/trip/charting assessments.

I have 4 brothers and I can't even name a single ex gf of theirs.

I didn't realize names were necessary.

Only you and The Fat Man can make an 8 point difference of opinion with a speed figure into something personal.

Oh, wait, something new in your repertoire....whining.

Do you want a hug?

I'd take one from Jessica Pacheco.

Since when does what they might do in the future have any bearing on what this figure should be?

Quite frankly, the Illinois Derby figures have been indefensibly high in the past few years (several of the runners never came close to repeating their number) and it's possible they took the low end of the range when they punched the 98 because of it. Not like anyone watches any other races from Hawthorne to know if the number is good in context.

And yes- I expect Yawanna Twist to run a 90 again... When he's 2-5 in the New York Derby at FL and wins by a pole in preparation for the Albany and Empire Classic.

Thanks for the entertainment, boys.

It was circular logic to annoy DrugS.

By the way, you are either poorly evaluating this year's crop of NY Bred 3YOs or not really thinking it through....or both.

That's all you got?

I couldn't even understand it.

Now you're interupting 21 Grams.

You mean you didn't like the 'up in short arms' crack?

It only made me pity you even more.