I am just curious, if drugs weren't in the equation and were wiped off of the earth who would be the best Trainer/horseman today and who would be the best Trainer statswise from a winning % point of view?

seriously how in the world could you know any of this to be true?

Cannon Shell.

Yeah I put that one right on the tape for you to tap in.

Edit: I'm sure Cannon shell's win % would perk up from the fall out. He's had a couple 2nds I think that may have turned out to be wins...

My win % has far more to do with my willingness to actually run horses and the distinct lack of talent of most of said horses than it does about drugs. It has been pretty common knowledge that they were giving something to the horses on the way to the paddock. There are a few on this board who I told this to years ago.

Well when you hear it from HoF quality owners and trainers and ALL are 100% in accord and you respect the opinions as such then I believe it to be true.
You know like when you go to a Dr and he tell you have virus and and not a batercial infection and he has been right 20 times before so you respect his professional opinion. Or when you hire a trainer and he tells you that yearling is well bred and perfectly made you respect his opinion because he has had success in the past.. It's called trust and credibilty.. I trust the people who have sang the praises of Dutrow and is horsemanship. They all have said on his game he is nothing short of ELITE.

BTW this doesn't mean he hasn't been a cheater or won't cheat again.

But as for knowning if the guy can train..I am 100% positive few if any are better..

Steve: I think another big reason for the diminishing lack of interest in response to trainers cheating is the large amount of trainers doing it and getting caught with positives. Its getting to be like baseball where the trainers not using illegal substances are probably in the minority. Its almost become the norm for trainers to use, just to be able to "keep up" with the guys who are notorious for illegal positives and gaudy winning percentages.

Exactly the same thing in baseball. At some point you have to wonder as a professional baseball player, do I stay clean and get penalized for it and lose out on millions of dollars from big performance induced contracts? Or do I do everything I can to "keep up"?

Gary Stevens?

I was thinking Jamie Sanders.

How do you get horses with talent? The HorseTalent Depot?

hall of fame owners? that is new.

Dutrow has been has no track record where he doesnt have medication problems. Any "theory' about his horsemanship is merely speculation often by people who have a biased view of the situation.

Saying that a guy can really train when he chooses not to cheat is hardly a resounding endorsement except in the morally bankrupt world of horseracing.

Trick rich owners into thinking I will cheat if I want to but can really train if i choose not to cheat?

how about same deal, different day

Being able to navigate the drug portion of handicapping has been become a skill itself.

I always wanted to know the answer to this question from a Trainer like yourself Chuck, Trainers that stick within the rules....what goes on in the head of horsemen when you line up against a Aubrey Cody or Brett Calhoun horse before the gates even open? Is it one of exasperation at times...

Chuck: You are like the Derek Jeter of horse racing. Good for you to have morals!

I know one former jock, Mark Guidry is atleast 1 ahead of Stevens at the moment.

On what basis are you inferring that Brett Calhoun is a cheater?

NT

I'm inferring he has had extraordinary win %'s at one or more times during his career. I think you can use common sense to speculate how he does it, at worse raising a Spockian eyebrow is healthy IMO when one pumps money into this game on a regular basis.

Putting BWS and Autrey on the same plateau is ridiculous. Simply a high winning percentage should not earn a trainer allegations of cheating, especially when you deal with the type of stock Calhoun does.

NT

Let's put it this way, with what we have seen recently any Trainer who has gaudy numbers will be looked at with some interest. I agree with you on this point, the few that play fairly shouldn't be penalyzed from a perspective viewpoint, but the reality now is most look at the game with some scepticism.

The term 'juicer' is so mainstream now that everyone who follows the game will probably come up with the same 5 Trainers in their minds right away.