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-   -   Imperial Council ? (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27471)

parsixfarms 01-27-2009 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
I am admittedly not a Shug McGaughey fan and that has nothing to do with Shug as a man. His horses garner a ton of hype all the time, are consistently overbet, and almost as consistently underperform. I understand that he has done great things over the years, as Easy Goer and Lure were outstanding animals, but that was then and this is now.

NT
So does that make you a Marty Wolfson fan now?

NTamm1215 01-27-2009 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsixfarms
So does that make you a Marty Wolfson fan now?
I'm not sure where I said anything about steroids and/or performance-enhancing drugs. What I am is a fan of horsemen who do what their supposed to do with good horses. Few trainers are given the type of horses Shug gets routinely and he does so little with them. What kind of career do you think Criminologist would have had if she was with someone like Frankel or Barclay Tagg?

NT

freddymo 01-27-2009 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
I'm not sure where I said anything about steroids and/or performance-enhancing drugs. What I am is a fan of horsemen who do what their supposed to do with good horses. Few trainers are given the type of horses Shug gets routinely and he does so little with them. What kind of career do you think Criminologist would have had if she was with someone like Frankel or Barclay Tagg?

NT
Barclay tagg are you serious? He can't use the drugs these guys use period..Criminolgist is just ok and if Frankel would have had her maybe she would have made 5 career starts

VOL JACK 01-27-2009 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
I'm not sure where I said anything about steroids and/or performance-enhancing drugs. What I am is a fan of horsemen who do what their supposed to do with good horses. Few trainers are given the type of horses Shug gets routinely and he does so little with them. What kind of career do you think Criminologist would have had if she was with someone like Frankel or Barclay Tagg?

NT
I dont see how you can say Tagg is alot better trainer than Shug. Maybe you could say K Mclaughlin or Dutrow, but Tagg??

NTamm1215 01-27-2009 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
Barclay tagg are you serious? He can't use the drugs these guys use period..Criminolgist is just ok and if Frankel would have had her maybe she would have made 5 career starts
I'm not going to wage the chemical warfare argument with you, so if that's the path you're choosing then that's fine.

My point is that Criminologist finished 2007 looking like a very serious turf mare for 2008 as she closed the year with four very sharp turf races. What we got from her in 2008 was a narrow win in a horrible version of the Beaugay, a no-show in the Just A Game (which a Frankel trainee who has made 15 starts won), a no-show in the Diana, a narrow win in the Noble Damsel and a loss to an allowance horse in the Athenia.

If your defense of Shug is that he's an old-fashioned horseman who would never use any type of materials that the demons who plague this game have made so infamous, then OK, there are also a lot of guys out there who play the game clean. Quite a few of them would do a lot better with Shug's stock than he does.

NT

ateamstupid 01-27-2009 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
I'm not sure where I said anything about steroids and/or performance-enhancing drugs. What I am is a fan of horsemen who do what their supposed to do with good horses. Few trainers are given the type of horses Shug gets routinely and he does so little with them. What kind of career do you think Criminologist would have had if she was with someone like Frankel or Barclay Tagg?

NT
I never thought Criminologist was all that much, so I have to disagree that Shug somehow mismanaged her. I do agree, however, that Shug's horses get often get overbet and overvalued.

parsixfarms 01-27-2009 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
If your defense of Shug is that he's an old-fashioned horseman who would never use any type of materials that the demons who plague this game have made so infamous, then OK, there are also a lot of guys out there who play the game clean. Quite a few of them would do a lot better with Shug's stock than he does.

NT
You never know where the blame lies, but it seems as if the Phipps Stable has "struggled" lately (against expectations). Some may say that it's Shug's fault. I think they have had a hard time finding successful crosses with all those Private Account, Seeking the Gold, Danzig, and Easy Goer mares. Their stable has had the same level of "success" as Claiborne, where they board all their mares, and I don't see Shug training the Claiborne horses any more, so it's hard to state definitively that he's underachieving with the Phipps/Janney stock.

ateamstupid 01-27-2009 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
If your defense of Shug is that he's an old-fashioned horseman who would never use any type of materials that the demons who plague this game have made so infamous, then OK, there are also a lot of guys out there who play the game clean. Quite a few of them would do a lot better with Shug's stock than he does.

NT
This seems a bizarre comment to me. What do you base this on? What exactly do you think Shug does wrong with his stock?

freddymo 01-27-2009 05:24 PM
Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

Danzig 01-27-2009 05:39 PM
the phippses have had tremendous success down over the years. yeah, they miss more than they hit ( don't most?) but they've had some really, really nice horses-pine island alone was better than most see in a lifetime. but keep in mind, they are a very private stable, who breed within-when's the last time you saw them make a big, splashy purchase? or sell for that matter. i think most breeders would sell their soul to get ahold of the phipps' broodmare band.
and didn't shug have one of the top picks in the distaff just a few months back?

Linny 01-27-2009 06:17 PM
They bought Our Country Place and she's been a nice mare for them. Pine Island is a granddaugher I think. Again though most of those families keep generating top fillies, no top colts.

dagulla 01-27-2009 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
I find it hilarious that Dunkirk has gotten absolutely slammed on this board but Imperial Council has been considered a "sleeper" for quite some time both here and with a number of "experts."

If Dunkirk capitalized on a terrific pace setup in his debut then what exactly did Imperial Council do when he broke his maiden in career start #2? They went pitifully slow to the half and considering Professor Z had a disastrous start and then made a woefully premature move, IC had EVERYTHING go his way. American Dance broke his maiden in his next start when he beat the mighty Aswaaq and was then drowned by Old Fashioned. Professor Z beat a horrible field of maidens on 11/1 at the Big A then beat an equally terrible N1X field on the inner. He was exposed at Oaklawn in an ungraded stake.

I am admittedly not a Shug McGaughey fan and that has nothing to do with Shug as a man. His horses garner a ton of hype all the time, are consistently overbet, and almost as consistently underperform. I understand that he has done great things over the years, as Easy Goer and Lure were outstanding animals, but that was then and this is now.

NT
I am no indsider, and I started this thread because I was curious to here any updated news on this horse. I herd months ago that Shug thought this one was a stone cold runner, and the real deal, and Shug felt he had a horse who could win a triple crown race. Shug is not the type to talk, like Dutrow. So take it how you want.

freddymo 01-27-2009 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagulla
I am no indsider, and I started this thread because I was curious to here any updated news on this horse. I herd months ago that Shug thought this one was a stone cold runner, and the real deal, and Shug felt he had a horse who could win a triple crown race..... Shug is not the type to talk, like Dutrow. So take it how you want.
He said the same thing about Sightseeing

dagulla 01-27-2009 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
He said the same thing about Sightseeing
Not true, I here that he thought Sightseeing was not much horse, and the only time he was really high on Sightseeing was going into the Wood, when Sightseeing easily ran his career best race.

jinjin 01-27-2009 07:53 PM
This thread started with an innocent question about a horse and it went off into weird tangents about shug's ability as a trainer, etc. Just because a horse is well bred, doesn't mean that it will be a champion. We all know it's a crap shoot. McGaughy is a good trainer who takes care of his horses and doesn't push them. If they have ability, they perform. It's futile to speculate whether they would do better with any other trainer because I doubt the Phipps' would ever part with Shug. They breed to race, and they love the horses and the game. They don't do it for the money.

blackthroatedwind 01-27-2009 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinjin
This thread started with an innocent question about a horse and it went off into weird tangents about shug's ability as a trainer, etc. Just because a horse is well bred, doesn't mean that it will be a champion. We all know it's a crap shoot. McGaughy is a good trainer who takes care of his horses and doesn't push them. If they have ability, they perform. It's futile to speculate whether they would do better with any other trainer because I doubt the Phipps' would ever part with Shug. They breed to race, and they love the horses and the game. They don't do it for the money.

First of all, he's not a Phipps horse.

Secondly, maybe you should at least wait until you have double digit posts before questioning the turn the thread took. People's opinions of Shug are actually very relevent to the topic of the thread.

And, look at it this way, it's about the most popular non-birthday thread this board has seen in months. How can that be a bad thing?

dagulla 01-27-2009 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
First of all, he's not a Phipps horse.

Secondly, maybe you should at least wait until you have double digit posts before questioning the turn the thread took. People's opinions of Shug are actually very relevent to the topic of the thread.

And, look at it this way, it's about the most popular non-birthday thread this board has seen in months. How can that be a bad thing?
What do you think of Shug and this horse ?

Linny 01-27-2009 08:28 PM
Most threads go on tangents. Focus goes from the horse to the trainer to the figures to the horses the original horse ran against, to their trainers...and so on...

This one has been pretty lively so it's a good thing you started it.

blackthroatedwind 01-27-2009 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagulla
What do you think of Shug and this horse ?
I like Shug. He's always very nice to me.

I have no particular opinion on this horse. He ran OK as a 2YO and hasn't been seen in about four months. He's a total question mark.

pgardn 01-27-2009 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linny
Most threads go on tangents. Focus goes from the horse to the trainer to the figures to the horses the original horse ran against, to their trainers...and so on...

This one has been pretty lively so it's a good thing you started it.
Tangents:
Including redboarding and the exchange of spirits?


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