Chuck, while you understand this, most people (fans, bettors, others) don't understand that this cuts both ways. What I mean by that is that you have various points along an entire spectrum. I've used many trainers, across the country -- of course in my opinion, good trainers. I've used top trainers, high % trainers, trainers who win races and produce results -- and in the case of two have been at two ends of "my extreme" so to speak. As a point of reference, I've never used any of the trainers, and I know who they are, where the vet bill is regulary $1200 to $2000 per month, so that's not my extreme, LOL.

So, I have one trainer where the vet bill is regularly de minimis, maybe $200 or so a month -- and again, this guy produces for me. Yes, certain months are higher, some are lower, but around here was the #. He might have put a horse on a program of something and then, sure, it's higher, but that was more the rare exception.

I have another trainer who before I sent him a horse -- right up front, first words out of his mouth were -- "hey, I know you have horses with __________ -- you get vet bills on the low end, right?, at least that's what I heard . . . well, you need to know that . . . my vet bills average $600 to $800 a month . . . I treat my horses with such and such, they are on a program of this and that . . ."

And, they did average that, LOL. A few months lower, on a rare occasion, sure, higher; and this guy produced as well. For me, he was good with a certain kind of horse and fit into my business model. Point being -- it's at both ends of the spectrum, and many point in between. Now, while you know this, there are other elements as well. This is where I was referring to the "save face" aspect. That has nothing to do with medication or drugs. It also could be a trainer who just might not be competitive.

Eric

hey easy on my man scott lake
 

some of the guys over at delaware have a good thing going.

Some rumors are that somehow amicar can mask certain drugs. That doesn't make any sense to me, and i haven't heard of a logical scientific explanation.

Some pretty amazing trainer stats over at delaware park. Some of these guys are not only winning a high%, but moving up animals with bad past performance at other tracks in their first start at del.

Surprising it may be, but Scott Lake is one of the few good% winners who doesn't always use amicar. Nunley is the other i've noticed, although i never heard of a reputation for him.

You do realize that most rumors are not true and those concerning medications in racehorses are almost always untrue. Amicar does help bad bleeders to an extent and is hardly a powerful drug.

It is a lot easier to win at a high % when you are always in 5 horse fields.

hey Larry Jones is one of my favorite trainers. I like most of his barn. I am not saying that he and a few others have some a medication edge.

I was merely defending my man Scott Lake from the allegations

Saying that a trainer (not necessarily Scott Lake) is defensible because he doesnt use amicar is like saying that Saddam Hussien wasnt a bad guy because there were no weapons of mass destruction found.

:)

What about Byrne from around ten years ago. I think at one Keeneland meet, he had seventeen starters, and went something like 17 14-3-0.

Wesley Ward

I hate to tell you guys but if you didnt vote for Oscar you really dont know what good juice is. Some of the things he did would make guys like Scavs just insane. Like claiming a horse for $25000 out of the 2nd race on Wednesday, reenter the horse the same day because entries were not filled yet and run back for $40000 on Friday and gallop. Alot. Or run a horse 5 times in a month at different distances and win most of them. And when they were off a long time and dropped hard they never won, never. And when the water was finally turned off he was totally dead. His brother won the triple crown by the way.

I thought it was normal to claim a horse for $20,000 and then have it win a stakes race 4 days later. LOL. I have never seen anyone come close to Oscar. When horses moved into his barn, it was not uncommon for them to literally improve 10 lengths overnight.

Did they ever figure out what he was giving them?

Excellent point -- absolutely excellent.

Eric

Nothing was better then listening to Pack in his prime trying his best not to puke talking about an Oscar claim from a week ago for 15k that trounced 40 claimers by 8... Now that was training...BTW the Horse typically paid 5.80

Flinstone vitamins

The few guys who were using chlenbuterol in the early 1990s had a license to steal. Some of these guys were giving it to horses on race day. If you are the only guy using chlenbuterol and you are using it on race day, it would be hard not to have a 25-30% win percentage.

Utter disdain.

Or how about claiming Shifty Sheik and almost winning the Woodward or The Jockey Club Gold Cup? Can't remember which race it was.

Very, very true about Oscar. For those of you who don't know, Oscar used to train for the Triple Fox Stables, one of the very early versions of partnerships, syndications, etc. -- founded by none other than our own Bob Fox.

Also, I wonder when, where, how, etc. a trainer joins the "we just know he's cheating club" so to speak. We have the Lake's, Asmussen's, Norman's, Dutrow's, et al -- those who have numerous positive tests. What % of these were for exotic, designer, etc. type of drugs and what % was for clenbuterol overages, legal everyday drugs, etc. Regardless, it doesn't matter. However, is it those positive tests that get the guy membership into the "juice trainer" or "super trainer" club?

My point being is that it can be subjective, objective and very much based upon interpretation, understanding, etc.

Anyway, great thread.

Eric

This is true. It used to come from canada, France and Australia (you know those places where racing is clean). But they did have a test for it in the mid 90's because i know of 2 guys that got caught for using it (harness guys). What about the guys using Lasix on bleeders in the late 60's and early 70's before anyone knew what it was? Anyone thinking that racing was hay, oats, and water back then has never heard of Alex Harthill. Who by the way was the vet for none other than Sunday Silence which was owned by Mr. Hancock.

Lake was winning at somewhere around a 30% clip in New York. When they implemented the detention barn, his win percetage dropped down to around 7%. He went from having one of the highest winning percentages to one of the lowest. Then he pretty much moved all of his horses to Delaware.

I think that would make most reasonable people wonder about Lake.

How about claiming Miesques Approval for 50k? and winning the FN Breeder Cup.. Fear the Wolf