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-   -   Are poles adjusted in turf races when the rail is shifted? (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14262)

Storm Cadet 06-17-2007 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
MY understanding is this...

If you assume
1. Mile turf course
2. both straights are 1/4 mile and both turns are 1/4 mile

That's 2640 ft of turns in a 1 mile race. Radius of one turn = 2640 / 3.14 /2 = 420 ft

Move the rail out 20 feet, circ = 440(new radius) * 3.14 *2 = 2765 ft. So on a "20 ft out rail" they run 125 ft more on the turns than on a "Hedge rail" track. 125 ft is how far the starting gate is placed for the start of a '20 ft out' rail start past the start of a 'hedge rail' mile.

My understainding is:
1. Starting gate is moved.
2. Poles don't move.
3. Timers are not connected to poles, they're clipped to the rail.
4. They do move the timers.

1/8 mile is 660 ft. 125 feet is about 1/5 or so of 1/8 mile or about 2.5 seconds. That's roughly how much longer in a mile race timewise they run on the turns in a 20 ft out rail vs a hedge rail.

I got a C- in Chemistry so I could be very very wrong.
Saratoga people told us 2 years ago that they DO NOT MOVE the starting gate in the added on distance. Gate is kept at the same point (mile race gate position is never moved) except for grass wear...and it's only a matter of 10-25 feet.

pba1817 06-17-2007 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Cadet
[/b]


The reason they move the rails in and out is to SAVE THE TURF from getting beaten up. Just like a golf course moves the tees up and back on the tee box. It has nothing to do with MAKING horses run father or shorter.

Just as in golf, the golfer has to figure out the added distance if tees are back, so does the horseplayer figure out the added distance when rails are out.
We all know why they move the rails, his theory is that when moving the rails out, the horses run a longer distance than they do if the rails are in. If they are running a 1 1/16th with the rails out its a longer race than 1 1/6th with the rails at the normal or hedge.

SentToStud 06-17-2007 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Cadet
Saratoga people told us 2 years ago that they DO NOT MOVE the starting gate in the added on distance. Gate is kept at the same point (mile race gate position is never moved) except for grass wear...and it's only a matter of 10-25 feet.
If they are moving the rails out and do not move the starting gate, I believe what you wrote only if they call it an "about" distance. Otherwise, I don't.

Storm Cadet 06-17-2007 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
If they are moving the rails out and do not move the starting gate, I believe what you wrote only if they call it an "about" distance. Otherwise, I don't.
What I said was the starting gate is moved for wear and tear...it's still carded as 1 mile, they don't calibrate the extra distance into where the gate is positioned in regards to the fencing out position...the movement could be 10-15 feet either way. I never said they carded it ABOUT distance.

Cannon Shell 06-17-2007 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Cadet
The added distance HAS to be greater on the outer Belmont course than the inner with it's huge area and sweeping turns?
Have Belmonts turns ever been addressed without the word 'sweeping' in front of them?

Storm Cadet 06-17-2007 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Have Belmonts turns ever been addressed without the word 'sweeping' in front of them?
Sweeping as the Red Sox are sweeping the offensively challenged Giants?
:D

Bobby Fischer 06-17-2007 03:33 PM
Speed Figures - 2 seconds makes a big difference.

- With the exception of the shorter turf sprints(all out sprints with a lot of early speed types) I don't think 150 feet or so distance is going to draw stamina into play.

In routes I think the biggest factor, if it exists, is a benefit it would give to inside or outside runners.
I don't understand this factor - I have heard Rails Out= Inside Turn Bias :confused:

BillW 06-17-2007 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer
I don't understand this factor - I have heard Rails Out= Inside Turn Bias :confused:
That's probably referring to it being easier to run around a wider (more sweeping :D ) turn. Try running in a 20 foot circle then move out to one that is 40 feet in diameter. The centrifugal force is less as the turn flattens out. As far as it being a real impact on turns of the radius that exist on a racing oval, I don't really know.

Dunbar 06-18-2007 07:43 AM
First, thanks to all for the responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
MY understanding is this...

If you assume
1. Mile turf course
2. both straights are 1/4 mile and both turns are 1/4 mile

That's 2640 ft of turns in a 1 mile race. Radius of one turn = 2640 / 3.14 /2 = 420 ft

Move the rail out 20 feet, circ = 440(new radius) * 3.14 *2 = 2765 ft. So on a "20 ft out rail" they run 125 ft more on the turns than on a "Hedge rail" track. 125 ft is how far the starting gate is placed for the start of a '20 ft out' rail start past the start of a 'hedge rail' mile.

My understainding is:
1. Starting gate is moved.
2. Poles don't move.
3. Timers are not connected to poles, they're clipped to the rail.
4. They do move the timers.

1/8 mile is 660 ft. 125 feet is about 1/5 or so of 1/8 mile or about 2.5 seconds. That's roughly how much longer in a mile race timewise they run on the turns in a 20 ft out rail vs a hedge rail.
(emphasis added)

STS, you're saying they would/do move the starting gate enough to make up for the extra 125 feet of a 20-ft-rail-out, and that the fractional times are also correct because they move the timers, right?

--Dunbar

mikekay 06-18-2007 11:40 AM
While you're on this topic, can anyone explain why the stretch at the Aqueduct inner track is longer than the stretch on the main track? Seems impossible.

BillW 06-18-2007 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay
While you're on this topic, can anyone explain why the stretch at the Aqueduct inner track is longer than the stretch on the main track? Seems impossible.
If you're defining the stretch as where the track's outer and inner edges are both straight (not curved) they should be the same. The extra distance of the outer track is gained by the larger radius of the turns.

mikekay 06-18-2007 12:02 PM
Just going by there numbers printed in the Form.

BillW 06-18-2007 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay
Just going by there numbers printed in the Form.
Just curious - what do the show for each?

mikekay 06-18-2007 01:06 PM
Aqueduct 'home stretch lenghts'
Main: 1155.5
Inner: 1175
Turf: 1175
????

pba1817 06-18-2007 01:35 PM
Different locations for the finish lines would be my guess.

Dunbar 06-21-2007 10:58 AM
Apologies for bumping this just once in the hope that I can get a more definitive answer to my original question...

STS, can you elaborate on what your understanding is based on? Was it a particular track? Storm Cadet is saying that the Saratoga "track super" said adjustments are not done for the purpose of compensating for rail differences.

Can anyone else confirm whether the starting gate and fractional timers are moved to accomodate the additional distance caused by moving the rail out in turf races? This seems like something that should be known by several regulars here.

Thanks,
--Dunbar

VOL JACK 06-21-2007 12:25 PM
My ? is why is there no denotation on the pp's telling us if the rail was out. I personally would think it would be a useful bit of info. Since early pace runners have a better chance when the rail is out.

SentToStud 06-21-2007 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar
Apologies for bumping this just once in the hope that I can get a more definitive answer to my original question...

STS, can you elaborate on what your understanding is based on? Was it a particular track? Storm Cadet is saying that the Saratoga "track super" said adjustments are not done for the purpose of compensating for rail differences.

Can anyone else confirm whether the starting gate and fractional timers are moved to accomodate the additional distance caused by moving the rail out in turf races? This seems like something that should be known by several regulars here.

Thanks,
--Dunbar
My wife and I were having lunch at Gulfstream and one of the Gulf guys sat down and we talked a while. This came up and he told me what I wrote. I believe it's true. Maybe one of the industry 'pros' who visit the board can get an answer from a track super.

Dunbar 06-22-2007 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
My wife and I were having lunch at Gulfstream and one of the Gulf guys sat down and we talked a while. This came up and he told me what I wrote. I believe it's true. Maybe one of the industry 'pros' who visit the board can get an answer from a track super.
Thanks for the explanation. I'm still wondering if other tracks do it like Gulfstream, especially given what Storm Cadet reported being told at Saratoga.

I had assumed that many here would know the answer--a few here make their own speed figs and others, like me, rely heavily on the figs of Beyer or others. Plus, pace figs would depend heavily on whether the fractional timers were moved. Now I'm not feeling as bad about not knowing the answer myself!

--Dunbar

saratogadew 01-04-2016 08:38 AM
here is a turf rail discussion from 8 years ago.


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