How does Ravel being out help Pletcher win the big one? He is the trainer of Ravel. I think this helps O'Neill.

Agreed. And with more and more horses wanting that prime "stalking" spot will that not set more derbies up for the off the pace type such as not only Unbridled but Monarchos and Giacomo as well. I dont personally like CQ but feel he will be a part of SUperfecta mix

The key is that Ravel's defection from the trail does not affect my guarantee that Cowtown Cat will run 16th in the Derby, because I had already factored it in.
The more I look at it, the more sure I am. There is no possible way Cowtown Cat could finish any better or worse than 16th. It is a mortal lock.

No, but I want a Scat Daddy one. Seriously.

I think this will be the year of Doug O'Neill; I think he has very good chances with Great Hunter and Cobalt Blue. He has two other chances as well.

lol the year of Doug O'neill thats one of the funniest things ive ever heard, Doug O'neill will not do squat outside of southern california thats a fact

They are not. Dude you need serious help.

As Cardus posted on an earlier thread:

I just love threads with these kinds of titles.

I know that's why I stopped by.

Like moths to a flame...

Isn't it.....



..oh never mind.





Hey do you have any nu.....

...oh never mind again.




Oh..this is Andrew trying to look like Morty.

Nice seeing you Pam.

thou i regaurd quey as a as a pretty nice horse..and i would love to own em..he in my opinion will do no better than 5th or so....

Monarchos was at the rear, Charismatic was well back, Grindstone....I know what you are saying and I prefer somebody in the second tier, but it's not that rare. It's less likely that somebody wires the field.

HEre is the count I get from 1960 to present, 47 data pts, it seems:

23/11/6/7

Closer/stalkers/presser/front runner

Some notes: I counted FuPeg as a closer as he was 6 1/2 back at the 1/2 mile. I had to reclassify Charismatic as stalker as he was w/in 4 len. when he started passing all those horses on the backstretch. Smarty I have as stalker, although the Preakness I thought he pressed. Thunder Gulch reclassed as presser looking at the PPs. Barbaro stalker, although some think of him as a E/P...

I tried to base it on 0-2 lengths=presser; 2-4: stalker, 4 1/2 or more closer. It was not a completely uniform count, some based on a previous internet discussion some based on charts, some based on trips notes from the Ky derby site. BUt the trip notes are pretty good in that regard, if they say "well in hand" you can assume closer, if they say "never far away" assume pressing, etc. Also I didnt make it uniformly based on 2nd call, if it was a close call I tried to use best 2 out of first 3 calls. But in most cases, the 2nd call was descriptive.

If you think this is off, send me a PM and I'll send the complete list...

THe same sort of ratio goes back even to the 50s, here's the updated count, from 1947 to present, 60 data pts...

28/14/8/10

closer/stalker/presser/gtw

Based mostly on the trip notes. Notes seem to be pretty clear as to where the horse was running, not real sure on Tomy Lee, described as "snugged in behind the leader," calling him a stalker, could mean a presser..

Don't forget the Derby winners on or close to the lead who got the wet-track assist - like Go for Gin and Smarty Jones (the Monsoon Derby). Do they get run down on a dry track? Some believe so.

I don't think anyone was running down Smarty Jones that day on any surface.

Do you honestly think that a dry track would have let Imperialism or Limehouse come get that horse?

Thats what I think was funny after the Derby. The wet track thing popped up, and then the Preakness field was crushed. Good Lord look what the animal did at Belmont. He got pushed hard by two diff. very good horses and still barely went down. Smarty ran on any dirt you gave him.

CQ is gonna need a Giacomo set up and I dont see that happening for a while. Some lessons were learned in that burn up that have not had time to become a passing memories.

The setup that Giacomo got wasn't even as good as when Monarchos won. Remember, the pace in the 2005 Derby was so fast because Spanish Chestnut was entered as a "rabbit" for Bandini. Didn't really work out since the went 16th and 19th.

I'm not particularly a Circular Quay fan, but he is not nearly as much of a plodder as Giacomo. CQ basically took the lead at the 3/16 of the La Derby. I think more tactical speed may be found in that horse. It definitely can't hurt down the line.

And, yes, you're right, Smarty was going to win that Derby rain or shine. He had the perfect target in front of him who couldn't get classic distances.

NT