I think we can all agree that if she runs in the Breeders Cup, there are some serious dirt horses in there, and wins, that she'll have to be included in the conversation as one of the greater racemares of recent times.

Exactly, dirtslot

Not "bashing" Goldilocks … just happen to think that top classic distance runners (like Z) are superior to strict milers.

I generally agree, and I would still take Goldikova over Zenyatta every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Her accomplishments dwarf Zenyatta's that heavily.

Why, because they're running a mile and not some artificially arbitrary distance that measures superiority?

IMO Zenyatta is not a horse you can measure with speed figs or final times as in other horses, who knows maybe all that are in her corner are totally wrong about her, we've been hoodwinked by the campaign and Sheriff's great placement of 17 times in her career

thats how the greats are measured as you say why is zen not measured the same way..

your basic problem that i can see is that most all people like the horse..'i also think she is fantasic and a joy to see race' just
not to the extent that she is in the same time zone with the 'great' horses
of the past..the ones that get measured by who they ran vs and where and with speed figs and final times..get past all that and zen is no 1

Assuming that he didnt start taking hgh before he was a Yankee, no doubt his best years were pre HGH.

The longevity of his career seems to be the smoking gun. But he was a far better pitcher in earlier in his career when he was throwing 250+ dominant innings. The period of 1986-1992 was one of the greatest stretches any pitchers has ever had. His Vaunted Yankee years produced era's of 4.60, 3.70, 3.51, 4.35, and 3.91. Of course this was during a period of high offensive production but pales in comparison to his early Red Sox days. His 3 years in Houston were actually much better albeit against the weaker league.

So Aaron, Ruth, maris (doesnt really belong in this conversation) wouldnt have taken steroids if they played during this era? What about the fact that the pitchers they faced were far greater playing in a 16 team major league with 4 man rotations as opposed to now when basically every number 4 and 5 starter wouldnt even be good enough to play back then? The great thing about baseball is how little it has really changed over the years. Look at a basketball game or football game from the 60's and watch as baseball game from the same era. The baseball game is pretty close to what we see today on the field while the other sports are drastically different.

If she were racing now her legion of fans would be proclaiming her better than Secretariat because she beat Miss Muskett by 50 lengths and Secretariat "only" won the Belmont by 31.

true he appeared 70 times in non pitching games

It was rumored that in 1919 he intentionally pitched poorly on occasion because he wanted to be a full time position player while the Red Sox thought he was more valuable as a pitcher.

and in the "dead ball" era. If Ruth was playing today he'd be as good as he was back then (or better since parks are smaller)

The best part about guys like Ruth, Foxx, and in later years, Mantle, is that they went out all night, woke up the next day, and still managed to be some of the best baseball players of their eras.

Nobody beats Bobby Layne in so far as professional carousers go.

Jerkens didnt want to run her in either BC. Both years she was tailing off (especially in her 4 year old year) and wasnt doing that well but Mrs. Hoffman and her team of advisors wouldn't hear any of it. Smith said that she didnt handle the CD track and that was why she wasn't closer to the pace as usual. But jockeys pretty much always say that after a bad race so who knows. In the SA race she never ran a step and considering she came into the race off of a 7 week layoff he was telling you something.

She had some physical issues and if you notice that after each campaign she didnt run again for 6 months which is out of character for a Jerkens horse.

but isnt that normal?? :wf

Babe Ruth is so far the greatest player in his sport that it is laughable. His numbers dwarf his competition.

He didnt really play in the deadball era for the most part. But he pretty much ended it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-ball_era