Where's the Scat Daddy Thread? [Archive]

blackthroatedwind

11-07-2006, 07:01 PM

Seems we have spent a lot of time talking about a number of horses from the BC but I can remember nary a mention of one of the most bragged about pre-BC entrants....Scat Daddy. I seem to recall him being the next new superstar just a few short days ago and suddenly his mediocre effort isn't even worth reviewing?

My thoughts? Well, certainly he was never as good as his internet persona, having run some nice races but never running fast enough to earn the kind of praise being thrown around. However, he had overcome trouble in one start ( albeit to beat a very mediocre Teuflesburg ), and at least I felt he was a deserving favorite heading into Saturday. However, he hardly even lived up to that praise. So...what happened? I would say two things, one he had never been two turns, and at least for now there has to be at least some question if he is best suited to one turn races of mostly a mile or less. Secondly, I don't feel he was the benefit of a greatly timed ride, being forced to move too soon into the teeth of a very competitive pace. And, finally, I do think it's worth weighing the very real possibility that he is yet another horse from that barn that showed his best stuff early only to peter out as the later races came along. I fully expect an explosive return at Gulfstream followed by a succession of increasingly disappointing efforts. However, he was certainly more than good enough to bounce back and still have a good year in 2007. I just wonder if he has distance limitations ( at best ) and will be forced onto the TC trail and have a More Than Ready like campaign that barely gives him even an opportunity to run to his strengths.

Anybody else care to check in? I would love to hear some UNBIASED analysis by really anyone but particularly those that were extremely enamored with him what seems like just minutes ago.

Clip-Clop

11-07-2006, 07:05 PM

He will be very good just didn't get what he needed. Think Magnum or one of the many incredible Pletchers that aren't quite there.

blackthroatedwind

11-07-2006, 07:07 PM

He will be very good just didn't get what he needed. Think Magnum or one of the many incredible Pletchers that aren't quite there.

Who are the " many incredible Pletchers that aren't quite there "?

Sorry, but I don't get the Magnum reference. Feel free to enlighten me.

TitanSooner

11-07-2006, 07:09 PM

Was Scat Daddy running? I was too enthralled with Circular Quay err.... Street Sense " exploding to the lead "

philcski

11-07-2006, 07:12 PM

There's a reason Pletcher sold out of his share as soon as he had the chance- he's just not that good. His figures were mediocre at Saratoga for the level (which obviously doesn't say much about his competition there, either...), evidenced by the fact that he had to struggle to get by Teuflesberg in the last jump in the 6F race.

He'll be gone by the 2nd 2007 Derby prep.

blackthroatedwind

11-07-2006, 07:13 PM

Was Scat Daddy running? I was too enthralled with Circular Quay err.... Street Sense " exploding to the lead "

You were just unduly influenced by those around you:D .

TitanSooner

11-07-2006, 07:17 PM

You were just unduly influenced by those around you:D .

very possible. LOL

brianwspencer

11-07-2006, 07:53 PM

the scat daddy thread came up near the top of the page earlier today.....

....but then it faded right down when it actually mattered.

fitting, huh?

QUANROSS

11-07-2006, 08:00 PM

I did bet not bet Scat Daddy Sat. I won't wirte him off just yet, though he may not ne two turn horse.

I DID bet CP West and Street Sense. We all know how Street Sense faired, any thoughts on CP West? Wondering if that last work took too much out of him.

Cajungator26

11-07-2006, 08:01 PM

I like Scat Daddy a lot...

I don't think the two turns were as much a problem as the distance. I think he might be better suited for a mile.

blackthroatedwind

11-07-2006, 08:03 PM

I like Scat Daddy a lot...

I don't think the two turns were as much a problem as the distance. I think he might be better suited for a mile.

Well, I guess that rules out a start at Charles Town or Timonium.

QUANROSS

11-07-2006, 08:06 PM

Well, I guess that rules out a start at Charles Town or Timonium.

WAY harsh! LOL

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-07-2006, 08:12 PM

im sure your correct on all fronts..a nice run in gulfstream then...a move to the turf...the noble causway route..the move to the turf seems to be the trainers ace in the hole..."i always thought he was a turf horse"...lolafter that its finger lakes...

GPK

11-07-2006, 08:28 PM

Well, I guess that rules out a start at Charles Town or Timonium.

Ahhhh....good ole Timonium....home of the 3 turn 6 furlong sprint

brianwspencer

11-07-2006, 09:21 PM

i cant believe nobody even thought i was funny.

i thought i was a hoot for what its worth

QUANROSS

11-07-2006, 09:24 PM

Quit strokin' urself.

Ok ok, you were V funny.........

brianwspencer

11-07-2006, 09:25 PM

Quit strokin' urself.

Ok ok, you were V funny.........

well come on, its not easy to be funny talking about horses, so it's not often that i try....

perhaps this was the reason :)

QUANROSS

11-07-2006, 09:31 PM

Got it. U R humor is understood!:)

SCUDSBROTHER

11-08-2006, 03:44 AM

I could care less what horses didn't do well on that day.If a horse ran well Saturday,then good,but I don't care if others didn't do well.Look....You f'n got 5 grade 1 winners in the sprint that couldn't hit the board.None of them.I'm sorry,but to me the results of the day don't mean much.Not when 5 grade 1 winners can't even get 3rd.That day is a toss(the dirt races,)and you will see that when horses that ran poorly on Saturday come back and run very well. If Pletcher said the horse wants 2 turns,then he wants 2 turns.I know people don't like it,but many horses could not handle that track.Seemed like Scat was o.k. until he left the rail and got out into the middle of the track.I wouldn't be too concerned about it.The day is gunna stand out like a sore thumb in the past performances of many horses.The riders of Grade one winners Bordonaro,Siren Lure,and Henny Hughes all said their horses couldn't handle that track.You want to ignore them( one,and all,)then fine.They ran great before that day,and they will run great after that day.That track was crap,and 5 or 6 months from now you will get that(but not now.)

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 07:39 AM

RE: Scat Daddy

Don't know what all the fuss is about. Right now he seems fine to me. Expect to see him run well @ GP. Reasonably sure he'll beat the 3 horses that finished in front of him on Sat. I do not like to make predictions more the 5 MTP but this one ani't gonna cost me five cents.

With the exception of Byk, Philsiki and Mike it is a labor to read these other posters who are totally hopeless (even though every once in a while someone is correct about something). BTW, that will NOT let you give up your "day job".

Your handicapping, all around, is not that special.

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 08:15 AM

RE: Scat Daddy

Don't know what all the fuss is about. Right now he seems fine to me. Expect to see him run well @ GP. Reasonably sure he'll beat the 3 horses that finished in front of him on Sat. I do not like to make predictions more the 5 MTP but this one ani't gonna cost me five cents.

With the exception of Byk, Philsiki and Mike it is a labor to read these other posters who are totally hopeless (even though every once in a while someone is correct about something). BTW, that will NOT let you give up your "day job".
who are you...id go head to head with ya no problem

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 08:48 AM

Frankly, he looked poor in the flesh on the walkover for whatever reason...his coat was rather dull and he didn't inspire. Additionally, he is still green and a big kid IMO...he never looked comfortable all race and was tight and checked going into the first turn and never settled...I'm starting to wonder if his sire is Johanessburg or Dollar Bill after his first 5 starts of his career.....sheesh...

Also, he was the ONLY horse to track a fast pace and still be around at the wire - 4th - and did that despite racing very wide and well off of the golden rail that propelled Street Sense to an easy victory as if he were on a conveyor belt...it almost looked like the old Keeneland...

Personally, I am unsure how far Scat Daddy will go, but I think 1 1/16 miles is within his reach. Funny you mentioned More Than Ready because that is exactly who I liken him to, actually.

He is one of the best of his generation and I think he'll show it. Street Sense is also nice and has also been a "clocker's horse" around CD and one of the better babies on the grounds in KY. Plus, you know Street Sense will improve in a slow barn and with the pedigree to be better as he gets older.

The Breeders' Cup is what it is.....its almost like the Derby in that the best horses rarely win for whatever reason. IMO, the only horses that won Saturday who I can firmly believe to be the best horses in each of their respective division was Dreaming of Anna, who was a standout on the sheets and was just much faster than the others in the Juv. Fillies (but even she got a golden rail trip, so who knows?) AND of course - Ouija Board.

For whatever reason, most of the best horses were either up against a bias or didn't run their best races, etc. and that is why the average win payoff on a BC race is like somewhere around $28....the best horses don't always win..

Scat Daddy will be okay...its just a shame to me that Bernie didn't fire his best shot and now we'll never really know how good he was.....I'm pissed they retired him..

oracle80

11-08-2006, 09:01 AM

Guys anyone who uses sheets of any kind had "BOUNCE" written over his pp's in huge Red Ink.
He ran a huge lifetime top in the Champagne and was running back on only 3 weeks rest.
Pletcher never would have run him had the race not been for two million.
Hes better than he showed that day, as are many horses who ran against that insane scraped rail bias.

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 09:08 AM

..its just a shame to me that Bernie didn't fire his best shot and now we'll never really know how good he was...

For a horse you definitively spoke of as the virtual second coming this is quite an analysis of his performance. Not that Bernardini didn't run well, as he probably ran his best race, but a little " maybe I overrated him slightly " might be a bit more appropriate.

Ya know, the old " I wasn't wrong...the horse was " is not the road to success.

Balletto

11-08-2006, 09:12 AM

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 09:17 AM

I think Scat Daddy came back to soon. I really believe you need to give at least 5 weeks inbetween starts with 2 year olds. I also think Scat Daddy ran a real good race. The winner went out and won by 10 lengths. To me, this race is a throw out race when each of the horses races again. I think Scat will continue to grow and fill out a little and will be fine. To me, the horse reminds me more of Pulpit than More Than Ready. But who knows.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 09:19 AM

For a horse you definitively spoke of as the virtual second coming this is quite an analysis of his performance. Not that Bernardini didn't run well, as he probably ran his best race, but a little " maybe I overrated him slightly " might be a bit more appropriate.

Ya know, the old " I wasn't wrong...the horse was " is not the road to success.

If you think that was his best effort then you may want to try another profession. He was second on raw talent and heart alone, as I personally thought he was dead going into the far turn when Javier had to rouse him to take chase up on Brother Derek of all horses on the lead - whom we know isn't half the horse Bernie is....I knew he was beat at that point. When he fires his best shot he cruises to the lead under his own courage....I don't think he handled the track well, personally...

And yes, I stil think he was one of the more talented horses of the last 20 years and it is a shame he never got a chance to prove it. :mad:

...I know hes a better horse than the one that beat him.....

Balletto

11-08-2006, 09:20 AM

Pulpit? Really? I agree more along the lines of the More Than Ready comparison. He's going to have distance limitations but I do think he's a dangerous horse in any race at 1 1/16 and I think he's the type of horse that will play a big role in the outcome of any race over 1 1/16 just by pressing horses with class. He just wont win them. ;)

oracle80

11-08-2006, 09:21 AM

Hey Blackie... we agree on something! :eek: I, too, felt this was Bernardini's best effort to date... and he impressed me for the first time in losing. Very good 3 yo... not an all-time great.

Its funny how this worked out. What I find ironic is that many folks had doubts about Ghostzapper and his ability to go a mile and a quarter. I was among them. What Ghostzapper did that day was mind boggling. It was the biggest display of raw speed and talent that I ever saw. I watched the race, believed what I saw and immediately declared him the best horse I ever saw run. I still feel that way now. I doubt I will see another like him anytime soon, if ever.
I didn't make excuses about anything, I just admitted that my doubts about his ability to go a true route were completely without basis.
In this case I guess the love for this horse(Bern) was very deep by many folks who loved him and I suspect they are still stunned and searching for reasons why he lost.
Perspective on situations is usually better after some time has past, the emotions dim and true analysis of the situation is easier to do. Maybe a year from now, after some time has gone by, we'd be able to revisit this situation again without the emotional components clouding the situation.

Balletto

11-08-2006, 09:22 AM

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 09:22 AM

Start the 3-page long quarrels in 5..4..3...2...

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 09:23 AM

Hey Blackie... we agree on something! :eek: I, too, felt this was Bernardini's best effort to date... and he impressed me for the first time in losing. Very good 3 yo... not an all-time great.

I definitely don't think it was his best effort to date, but he showed to me that he can compete against a huge field after being asked too soon IMO. It's incredible to me that Flower Alley got as much hype as he did last year for finishing 2nd in the classic as a 3 year old, but Bernardini hasn't gotten the same respect.

I originally thought that Bernardini had "quit" as he was passed by Invasor, but I've re-watched the classic a dozen times and come to the conclusion that the horse was either exhausted or just not handling the track very well. It's a shame that he won't be running again as I think that he would have improved as a 4 year old and we would have seen an extremely nice 4 year old. Oh well...

Balletto

11-08-2006, 09:26 AM

Its funny how this worked out. What I find ironic is that many folks had doubts about Ghostzapper and his ability to go a mile and a quarter. I was among them. What Ghostzapper did that day was mind boggling. It was the biggest display of raw speed and talent that I ever saw. I watched the race, believed what I saw and immediately declared him the best horse I ever saw run. I still feel that way now. I doubt I will see another like him anytime soon, if ever.
I didn't make excuses about anything, I just admitted that my doubts about his ability to go a true route were completely without basis.
In this case I guess the love for this horse(Bern) was very deep by many folks who loved him and I suspect they are still stunned and searching for reasons why he lost.
Perspective on situations is usually better after some time has past, the emotions dim and true analysis of the situation is easier to do. Maybe a year from now, after some time has gone by, we'd be able to revisit this situation again without the emotional components clouding the situation.

I was never emotionally attached to this horse... maybe that's why he showed me more in defeat than he ever did in winning. I was never a member of his bandwagon and actually found the talk about him rather nauseating.

With that said, I truly was impressed with his BC effort and thought he made a very admirable move. In my mind, the loss doesnt tarnish him, but improves the lustre... but then again, I wasnt a hardcore fan.

I never thought of him as a superhorse... but one that still had to prove it... and he proved he was a top 3yo with a lot of talent. He proved he can be devastating to a field... but he also proved he's beatable and didnt deserve all the hype he got.

In my mind... great 3 yo... lots of talent... exciting horse... but it ends there.

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 09:27 AM

Balletto

11-08-2006, 09:28 AM

Start the 3-page long quarrels in 5..4..3...2...

No quarrels. I think everyone agrees he's talented... one of the best 3 yo's in some time. Lets just keep it at that. Any other argument is now just speculatory. We'll never know.

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 09:29 AM

If you think that was his best effort then you may want to try another profession. He was second on raw talent and heart alone, as I personally thought he was dead going into the far turn when Javier had to rouse him to take chase up on Brother Derek of all horses on the lead - whom we know isn't half the horse Bernie is....I knew he was beat at that point. When he fires his best shot he cruises to the lead under his own courage....I don't think he handled the track well, personally...

And yes, I stil think he was one of the more talented horses of the last 20 years and it is a shame he never got a chance to prove it. :mad:

Dude, I might want to try another profession? You are a confirmed chalk eating weasel who was full of bravado after any obvious short priced horse you liked won and were absent for DAYS after your mediocre opinions were exposed in the BC. Please.

But, furthermore, the rest of your post pretty much confirmed what I said. He ran a very good race despite everything not going his way. If you think cruising to the lead against High Cotton is the same as cruising to the lead against the likes of Brother Derek and Lava Man, among others, you are dramatically mistaken. You are the one that misevaluated this horse for months, said things that turned out to simply not be true, and are now acting like he wasn't himself because he was finally presented with a reasonably difficult challenge? Get real. The simple fact is he is the same good horse now that he was a month ago. He was never going to run faster if pressed, as you basically guaranteed, and he was never as good as the likes of Ghostzapper as you also claimed. Constantly suggesting horses that you were wrong about " didn't run their race " is NOT going to get you far. Ya know, even good handicappers are wrong most of the time.

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 09:29 AM

I dont know Joel. I thought his final move was truly a good show of talent. He picked off horses without any problem and his stride was fluent and true. I just think he was tested for the first time by a horse that was better than anything he's seen before.

I will give you he's one of the best 3 yo's in the last 20 years. But one of the best across all divisions for the last 20? Thats a jagged pill...To me he wasnt tested at all. To me, Dini went and got the lead and did what he normally does. Then Invasor just cruised on by. It isnt like they were inches apart eyeballing each other. Invasor was faster and better than day. There really isnt to much more to say about it.

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 09:34 AM

oracle80

11-08-2006, 09:37 AM

I definitely don't think it was his best effort to date, but he showed to me that he can compete against a huge field after being asked too soon IMO. It's incredible to me that Flower Alley got as much hype as he did last year for finishing 2nd in the classic as a 3 year old, but Bernardini hasn't gotten the same respect.

I originally thought that Bernardini had "quit" as he was passed by Invasor, but I've re-watched the classic a dozen times and come to the conclusion that the horse was either exhausted or just not handling the track very well. It's a shame that he won't be running again as I think that he would have improved as a 4 year old and we would have seen an extremely nice 4 year old. Oh well...

Flower ran a better race last year in the BCC than Bern did. No doubt about that in my mind. The fact that he didn't go on at age four doesn't change what he did at age three. YOu can't use his four year old year as a basis to change what he did in the Classic.
Bern beat up on bad or injured horses with no traffic in small fields and more importantly what I saw as very slow pace figures, and his two biggest victories came when his main rivals broke down or were injured. I will say that perhaps if he had a gut wrencher prior to the BC that he may not have run better than he did and perhaps had he been allowed to race at age 4, he would have joined the elite.
But I really didn't like the way he reacted when Invasor came to him, and I think he had a great trip getting first run at the speed while making a turn move that is usually a successful knockout punch in many situations.
Turns are hard on some horses to truly accelerate on, and usually if someone makes a big turn move the competition is screwed because they have to straighten away in the lane before they can get a run on the leader who has already assumed an advantage with both the lead and a full head of steam.
Invasor's ears flipped forward when he came to Bern, and he was having a ball out there.
Perhaps its his humble beginnings in South America, perhaps its his non flashy pedigree, perhaps its because his trainer hadn't been considered a big race trainer prior to this year, but for whatever reason people are finding it hard to accept that he won, and much more impressively than the winning margin would indicate.

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 09:38 AM

Can't we get back to talking about how much Scat Daddy sucks?

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 09:39 AM

Dude, I might want to try another profession? You are a confirmed chalk eating weasel who was full of bravado after any obvious short priced horse you liked won and were absent for DAYS after your mediocre opinions were exposed in the BC. Please.

But, furthermore, the rest of your post pretty much confirmed what I said. He ran a very good race despite everything not going his way. If you think cruising to the lead against High Cotton is the same as cruising to the lead against the likes of Brother Derek and Lava Man, among others, you are dramatically mistaken. You are the one that misevaluated this horse for months, said things that turned out to simply not be true, and are now acting like he wasn't himself because he was finally presented with a reasonably difficult challenge? Get real. The simple fact is he is the same good horse now that he was a month ago. He was never going to run faster if pressed, as you basically guaranteed, and he was never as good as the likes of Ghostzapper as you also claimed. Constantly suggesting horses that you were wrong about " didn't run their race " is NOT going to get you far. Ya know, even good handicappers are wrong most of the time.

I still think he was a better horse than Ghostzapper but we only got to see half of the show, as he projected to be a better 4-year-old with his pedigree and a little more seasoning. And yes, I avoided the sharks in the water like you who get off on trying to prove people wrong. Anyone who can really analyze a race whose opinions I value have all agreed that the horse didn't fire his best shot and still only got beat a length....far more nice horses didn't fire thier best shots in the race and still got beat a lot worse in the race....

Oh, and he cruised by a loose Wanderin Boy with ease last out and that horse is faster than Brother Derek FYI.....You should know that being a Zito fanatic...

Its a good thing you didn't take me up on the handicap-off last weekend as you had better done exceptionally well to win that one.....(since you had SO much to lose :rolleyes: )

oracle80

11-08-2006, 09:42 AM

bern was all out and got beat ...hes a good horse who qot get beat by a fresher very nice horse who moved at the right time....there was no looking in the eye..javy didnt see him till he moved past..do i think if they raced in three weeks time who would win ..it would be bern....but invasor is a very nice horse who should get the credit and the cash...they had a game plan and it worked..

I couldn't disagree more.
Invasor's "cough" made it very hard to have Invasor ready to race. 3 months and a few days layoff is the longest layoff in the history of the BCC for a winner. Extremely hard for any horse to run that well off that kinda layoff. Fresh is one thing, but 3 months goes beyond fresh and edges into too much time off.
Bern got his perfect prep, and had no excuses not to be top notch.
If they raced again in a month all it would do would increase the margin of victory by Invasor as he would be totally fit and tight. Theres only so much you can simulate and do in the mornings, and he still managed to grab him easily.
No shame in running 2nd to a horse like that.

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 09:43 AM

Flower ran a better race last year in the BCC than Bern did. No doubt about that in my mind. The fact that he didn't go on at age four doesn't change what he did at age three. YOu can't use his four year old year as a basis to change what he did in the Classic.
Bern beat up on bad or injured horses with no traffic in small fields and more importantly what I saw as very slow pace figures, and his two biggest victories came when his main rivals broke down or were injured. I will say that perhaps if he had a gut wrencher prior to the BC that he may not have run better than he did and perhaps had he been allowed to race at age 4, he would have joined the elite.
But I really didn't like the way he reacted when Invasor came to him, and I think he had a great trip getting first run at the speed while making a turn move that is usually a successful knockout punch in many situations.
Turns are hard on some horses to truly accelerate on, and usually if someone makes a big turn move the competition is screwed because they have to straighten away in the lane before they can get a run on the leader who has already assumed an advantage with both the lead and a full head of steam.
Invasor's ears flipped forward when he came to Bern, and he was having a ball out there.
Perhaps its his humble beginnings in South America, perhaps its his non flashy pedigree, perhaps its because his trainer hadn't been considered a big race trainer prior to this year, but for whatever reason people are finding it hard to accept that he won, and much more impressively than the winning margin would indicate.

Mike, you know as well as I do that I liked Invasor better than Bernardini in the classic (as we discussed), but I won't take it away from Bernardini that he is a much better horse than I thought originally. Is he the greatest horse of all time? Of course not, but I do think he would have had a great shot of proving to be one of the top horses next year.

Coach Pants

11-08-2006, 09:43 AM

Can't we get back to talking about how much Scat Daddy sucks?
He'll be off the triple crown trail by march. His two year old campaign was brutal.

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 09:43 AM

its on now....and yes scat daddy isnt that great...

Buffymommy

11-08-2006, 09:45 AM

its on now....and yes scat daddy isnt that great...

Your funny hooves! And yes, Scat Daddy isn't that great and I agree with Pillow Pants, no way is he around for the derby.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 09:45 AM

<<<Blackthroatedwind typing in progress>>>

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 09:46 AM

I couldn't disagree more.
Invasor's "cough" made it very hard to have Invasor ready to race. 3 months and a few days layoff is the longest layoff in the history of the BCC for a winner. Extremely hard for any horse to run that well off that kinda layoff. Fresh is one thing, but 3 months goes beyond fresh and edges into too much time off.
Bern got his perfect prep, and had no excuses not to be top notch.
If they raced again in a month all it would do would increase the margin of victory by Invasor as he would be totally fit and tight. Theres only so much you can simulate and do in the mornings, and he still managed to grab him easily.
No shame in running 2nd to a horse like that.
wrong...he looked very well in his stall on jcgc day..what about his race vs sun king not exactly a monster effort...

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 09:46 AM

Your funny hooves! And yes, Scat Daddy isn't that great and I agree with Pillow Pants, no way is he around for the derby.Sure he will be around for the Derby (unless he gets hurt). Look who owns him--you think they are going to pass the Derby. They already have enough graded earnings. Pletcher and Tabor have two big of egos not to run this horse in the Derby. If he is healthy, he is running.

oracle80

11-08-2006, 09:49 AM

Mike, you know as well as I do that I liked Invasor better than Bernardini in the classic (as we discussed), but I won't take it away from Bernardini that he is a much better horse than I thought originally. Is he the greatest horse of all time? Of course not, but I do think he would have had a great shot of proving to be one of the top horses next year.
Agree with everything you just said. Hes better than I thought he was. He definitely would have been great at age four. But hes no Invasor.
Amazing that the longest layoff in BCC history by far preceding a win by a horse in the race gets so little mention. Fresh? Well in a sprint race where they only have to be fit enough to go 6f perhaps it could be construed as an advantage to have three months off.
But a mile and a quarter is still a mile and a quarter, and no way could Invasor have been as tight as he would have been had he not "coughed" prior to the JCGC. He was the one who was at the disadvantge, not Bern.

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 09:49 AM

I still think he was a better horse than Ghostzapper but we only got to see half of the show, as he projected to be a better 4-year-old with his pedigree and a little more seasoning. And yes, I avoided the sharks in the water like you who get off on trying to prove people wrong. Anyone who can really analyze a race whose opinions I value have all agreed that the horse didn't fire his best shot and still only got beat a length....far more nice horses didn't fire thier best shots in the race and still got beat a lot worse in the race....

Oh, and he cruised by a loose Wanderin Boy with ease last out and that horse is faster than Brother Derek FYI.....You should know that being a Zito fanatic...

Its a good thing you didn't take me up on the handicap-off last weekend as you had better done exceptionally well to win that one.....(since you had SO much to lose :rolleyes: )

You will never get it Joel, as you are so caught up in taking things personally, that you will never see what is really going on. You earned a coward's reputation because you constantly patted yourself on the back when right, your behavoir after the Champagne was appalling, and then scurried off when wrong. NOBODY knocks those who come back contrite and discuss things objectively. However, considering your past exploits, ignoring all the BC results, and then claiming " the real horses didn't show up " days later as though THAT is an intelligent dissection of the race just isn't going to suffice.

And then you make some silly Wanderin' boy-Zito reference as though ANYBODY ever believed or suggested Wanderin' Boy was in his league. That is what....a pathetic attempt to get my goat? Didn't work. Stick to the REAL issue. If you think Wanderin' Boy is a " faster horse " than Brother Derek then your opinion is even worse than I thought.

As for your final paragraph....you don't get anything do you. You have a lot to prove....not me.

Balletto

11-08-2006, 09:50 AM

<<<Blackthroatedwind typing in progress>>>

No need to bait Joel... when are you going to Kee Nov?

oracle80

11-08-2006, 09:52 AM

wrong...he looked very well in his stall on jcgc day..what about his race vs sun king not exactly a monster effort...
Why is that? Because Sun King didn't go on? I've always said on here that I think that school of thought is completely invalid, not just in this case. You can't use races going forward to change an effort and its validity in the past. Sun King ran the race of his career that day and it was a corker. The fact that he didn't repeat it doesn't change what he did anymore than what Flower Alley did miserably this year changes his great race last year in the BCC.
Was Sun King great? No. But he showed flashes of greatness in his career and on Whitney Day ran the race of his life.

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 09:54 AM

Sure he will be around for the Derby (unless he gets hurt). Look who owns him--you think they are going to pass the Derby. They already have enough graded earnings. Pletcher and Tabor have two big of egos not to run this horse in the Derby. If he is healthy, he is running.

BTW, I think the earnings picture is going to be very interesting for the Derby next year. With the BC Juvenile purse being $2 million it puts the top four in. Now the Delta Jackpot is a G3 so that $1 million race will get 2-3 horses in. The Blue Grass could put some unexpected horses in the race if turfy 3yos point there. Not to mention that any of the top three fillies from the BC Juv Fillies would have enough earnings if they wanted to run (God I hope not). I have a feeling we could see a horse with right around $200,000 in graded stakes earnings get shut out of the field this year.

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 09:54 AM

wrong...he looked very well in his stall on jcgc day..what about his race vs sun king not exactly a monster effort...
well mike again your thinking that invasor was the better horse from the get go is a joke ..if you where in keirens shoes would you wait till the big prize and a larger field or take your shot at the jcgc..with 4 horses...again im listeneing...keep in mind you got your tips from the jiffy lube ...

Buffymommy

11-08-2006, 09:54 AM

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 09:55 AM

You will never get it Joel, as you are so caught up in taking things personally, that you will never see what is really going on. You earned a coward's reputation because you constantly patted yourself on the back when right, your behavoir after the Champagne was appalling, and then scurried off when wrong. NOBODY knocks those who come back contrite and discuss things objectively. However, considering your past exploits, ignoring all the BC results, and then claiming " the real horses didn't show up " days later as though THAT is an intelligent dissection of the race just isn't going to suffice.

And then you make some silly Wanderin' boy-Zito reference as though ANYBODY ever believed or suggested Wanderin' Boy was in his league. That is what....a pathetic attempt to get my goat? Didn't work. Stick to the REAL issue. If you think Wanderin' Boy is a " faster horse " than Brother Derek then your opinion is even worse than I thought.

As for your final paragraph....you don't get anything do you. You have a lot to prove....not me.

Nah, nothing to prove to anyone....I have what I want in this game and I am very satisfied. I'd match my knowledge, instincts and horsemanship with yours ANYDAY of the week and I am significantly younger.....whats there to prove to a guy like you who is scared to put his money where his mouth is?....nada....just keep chirping and blowing hard about your percieved credability...

The fact is that I've still yet to meet people who have even heard of you, which says a lot to me....

oracle80

11-08-2006, 09:56 AM

well mike again your thinking that invasor was the better horse from the get go is a joke ..if you where in keirens shoes would you wait till the big prize and a larger field or take your shot at the jcgc..with 4 horses...again im listeneing...keep in mind you got your tips from the jiffy lube ...
No Hooves, you don't get it. I don't think he "passed" the JCGC, they wanted to run.

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 09:59 AM

The fact is that I've still yet to meet people who have even heard of you, which says a lot to me....

It certainly says a lot about the people you have met.

And, frankly, who cares?

Coach Pants

11-08-2006, 09:59 AM

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 10:01 AM

No Hooves, you don't get it. I don't think he "passed" the JCGC, they wanted to run.
ok... i dont think so...as it turns out they won so congrats to them..

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 10:04 AM

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

LMAO!!! Good lord, I haven't laughed all week... but that was hilarious. :D

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 10:05 AM

It certainly says a lot about the people you have met.

And, frankly, who cares?

I don't...you were the one who ridiculously thought you were so reknowned in the industry that last week you said that "you had so much to lose and nothing to gain" by a friendly handicap-off....please :rolleyes:

You're probably right....I don't know anyone important in this game......

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 10:09 AM

BTW, I think the earnings picture is going to be very interesting for the Derby next year. With the BC Juvenile purse being $2 million it puts the top four in. Now the Delta Jackpot is a G3 so that $1 million race will get 2-3 horses in. The Blue Grass could put some unexpected horses in the race if turfy 3yos point there. Not to mention that any of the top three fillies from the BC Juv Fillies would have enough earnings if they wanted to run (God I hope not). I have a feeling we could see a horse with right around $200,000 in graded stakes earnings get shut out of the field this year.I couldnt agree more. The Delta Jackpot being a Graded Race is HUGE. I will be real interested to see if that race produces any Derby horses. I love that it finally got a Graded status. I also will be wondering what major trainers are going to put their 2nd string in that race.

ArlJim78

11-08-2006, 10:11 AM

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif
now that there is funny i don't care who you are.

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 10:14 AM

BTW, I think the earnings picture is going to be very interesting for the Derby next year. With the BC Juvenile purse being $2 million it puts the top four in. Now the Delta Jackpot is a G3 so that $1 million race will get 2-3 horses in. The Blue Grass could put some unexpected horses in the race if turfy 3yos point there. Not to mention that any of the top three fillies from the BC Juv Fillies would have enough earnings if they wanted to run (God I hope not). I have a feeling we could see a horse with right around $200,000 in graded stakes earnings get shut out of the field this year.

That is interesting.

Good thing for John Ward he doesn't have any TC contendors this year.

ArlJim78

11-08-2006, 10:19 AM

Anyone who can really analyze a race whose opinions I value have all agreed that the horse didn't fire his best shot and still only got beat a length...
Joel, this is equivalent to saying that I value the opinions of all the people who agree with me and the ones who don't agree with me don't really know how to analyze races. It doesn't prove anything other than the fact that you have tuned out a lot of very knowledgable people.

philcski

11-08-2006, 10:25 AM

I still think he was a better horse than Ghostzapper but we only got to see half of the show, as he projected to be a better 4-year-old with his pedigree and a little more seasoning. And yes, I avoided the sharks in the water like you who get off on trying to prove people wrong. Anyone who can really analyze a race whose opinions I value have all agreed that the horse didn't fire his best shot and still only got beat a length....far more nice horses didn't fire thier best shots in the race and still got beat a lot worse in the race....

Oh, and he cruised by a loose Wanderin Boy with ease last out and that horse is faster than Brother Derek FYI.....You should know that being a Zito fanatic...

Its a good thing you didn't take me up on the handicap-off last weekend as you had better done exceptionally well to win that one.....(since you had SO much to lose :rolleyes: )

You're delusional if you really think he was better than Ghostzapper.
Do I really need to match their credentials? No... but I will.

Bernardini:
G3 at 8F, G2 at 9F, G1 at 9.5F, 2 G1's at 10F+ a second in the world's biggest dirt race. Speed figures were good, not legendary.

Ghostzapper:
G1 at 6.5F, G2 at 7F, G1 at 8F (the most important dirt mile), G1+G3 at 9F, G1 at 10F in the world's biggest dirt race. Speed figures were the best of the last 20 years.

No comparison.

paisjpq

11-08-2006, 10:28 AM

BTW, I think the earnings picture is going to be very interesting for the Derby next year. With the BC Juvenile purse being $2 million it puts the top four in. Now the Delta Jackpot is a G3 so that $1 million race will get 2-3 horses in. The Blue Grass could put some unexpected horses in the race if turfy 3yos point there. Not to mention that any of the top three fillies from the BC Juv Fillies would have enough earnings if they wanted to run (God I hope not). I have a feeling we could see a horse with right around $200,000 in graded stakes earnings get shut out of the field this year.
am I the only one who thinks that the graded earnings during the 3YO season should be weighted to count more than the 2YO earnings? Seems like what they did the year before is not always indicative of who should be in the race on the 1st Saturday in May.

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 10:30 AM

am I the only one who thinks that the graded earnings during the 3YO season should be weighted to count more than the 2YO earnings? Seems like what they did the year before is not always indicative of who should be in the race on the 1st Saturday in May.

Totally, I think a points system would be way more effective. Why should the Delta Jackpot be worth more than the Wood Memorial? It is a ridiculous system.

ArlJim78

11-08-2006, 10:33 AM

am I the only one who thinks that the graded earnings during the 3YO season should be weighted to count more than the 2YO earnings? Seems like what they did the year before is not always indicative of who should be in the race on the 1st Saturday in May.
absolutely, it would help prevent horses getting in that don't belong and it would help to keep quality late bloomers in the mix. I don't know what the formula should be but that can be worked out.

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 10:35 AM

oracle80

11-08-2006, 10:38 AM

I think that money earned in grass races shouldnt count towards the earnings used to determine Derby Contenders.
I also think that a scale where grade one earnings count more than grade two which count more than grade 3's should apply as well.
Its completely illogical for the Delta jackpot earnings to count as much as the Wood memorial.
Its a system that needs revising and progressive moves.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 10:38 AM

Joel, this is equivalent to saying that I value the opinions of all the people who agree with me and the ones who don't agree with me don't really know how to analyze races. It doesn't prove anything other than the fact that you have tuned out a lot of very knowledgable people.

No two people in this game have alike opinions.......my opinions vary siginificantly with some of those whom I respect and value as credible.....It is the convictions they have based on their instincts and knowledge that make them solid horse analysts IMO....so it is general fundamentals and principles moreso than their opinions on specific things....

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 10:39 AM

am I the only one who thinks that the graded earnings during the 3YO season should be weighted to count more than the 2YO earnings? Seems like what they did the year before is not always indicative of who should be in the race on the 1st Saturday in May.

I don't have an answer but something is wrong. I think the BC should be weighed as heavily as 3YO races. Maybe earnings should be capped by Grade or you get different points for finishes depending on Grade.

Something is wrong that's for sure.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 10:40 AM

You're delusional if you really think he was better than Ghostzapper.
Do I really need to match their credentials? No... but I will.

Bernardini:
G3 at 8F, G2 at 9F, G1 at 9.5F, 2 G1's at 10F+ a second in the world's biggest dirt race. Speed figures were good, not legendary.

Ghostzapper:
G1 at 6.5F, G2 at 7F, G1 at 8F (the most important dirt mile), G1+G3 at 9F, G1 at 10F in the world's biggest dirt race. Speed figures were the best of the last 20 years.

No comparison.

You can only match their 3-year-old credentials...anything else would be foolish and unfair since Bernie didn't have the chance to blossom into a better older horse......Oh yeah, GZ was crippled most of his 3-year-old year...sorry, I forgot....

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 10:41 AM

I just have to say who I know in this game.

Joe - he is the man that parks my car at Hoosier. He always has great inside information.

Betty - she is always my server at Hoosier. She is fast and energetic. I alwasy tip her well.

Beatrice - she is the teller I go to at Hoosier. She also has good inside information.

Dominque - he is the bus boy at Hoosier. he doesnt say much but he does work hard.

These are just a few people who I know in this game. After all, they work at the track so they must be part of the game.

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 10:42 AM

I dont know how a point system should work. Do you get 1 pt for a grade III, 2 pts for a Grade II and 1 pt for a Grade I victory. Then why do you do with the races that pay down to the 5th, 6th, 7th etc etc place? I like the earnings and I think it works perfectly. You have to run to get in. And it is looking like you need to run more and more to get a spot.

They could work something out, points for the top five in each race with G1s counting more than G2, counting more than G3s, counting more than ungraded stakes. Routes counting more than sprints, 3yo races counting more than 2yo races. It wouldn't be that difficult.

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 10:46 AM

They could work something out, points for the top five in each race with G1s counting more than G2, counting more than G3s, counting more than ungraded stakes. Routes counting more than sprints, 3yo races counting more than 2yo races. It wouldn't be that difficult.See I dont really think that a Grade II should count less. The Arkansas Derby is a Grade II. Why should that count differently from the Bluegrass, SA Derby or the Wood?

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 10:48 AM

just saw street sence replay on tvg..hi ho calvin....nice pick andy..

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 10:48 AM

See I dont really think that a Grade II should count less. The Arkansas Derby is a Grade II. Why should that count differently from the Bluegrass, SA Derby or the Wood?

I agree with that. Maybe it should increase by date or timing.

It's not easy and one could argue the simpler the better. Nothing will be totally fair. The bottom line is if you race your horse the deserving ones will get in. If you pull a John Ward, and never run, you won't.

philcski

11-08-2006, 10:48 AM

You can only match their 3-year-old credentials...anything else would be foolish and unfair since Bernie didn't have the chance to blossom into a better older horse......Oh yeah, GZ was crippled most of his 3-year-old year...sorry, I forgot....

Bullsheet, because you can't be certain he'll be a better 4YO than 3YO. Flower Alley? You can only compare WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 10:49 AM

just saw street sence replay on tvg..hi ho calvin....nice pick andy..

Thanks. I believe he is the finest thoroughbred to ever look through a bridle.

That is until he loses....or fails to run his race.

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 10:49 AM

See I dont really think that a Grade II should count less. The Arkansas Derby is a Grade II. Why should that count differently from the Bluegrass, SA Derby or the Wood?

That is certainly an issue I have with the grading committee. I'd be fine with putting the Blue Grass/SA Derby/Wood/Arkansas Derby/Florida Derby equal, then putting the Lane's End, Gotham, Santa Catalina, Rebel, FOY a notch below, then putting the Southwest, Holy Bull, and whatever other February preps there are a notch below that.

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 10:51 AM

I agree with that. Maybe it should increase by date or timing.

It's not easy and one could argue the simpler the better. Nothing will be totally fair. The bottom line is if you race your horse the deserving ones will get in. If you pull a John Ward, and never run, you won't.Exactly. There are plenty of races to run and you have to race your horse in order to get in.

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 10:51 AM

Thanks. I believe he is the finest thoroughbred to ever look through a bridle.

That is until he loses....or fails to run his race.
ha so funny..it works on so many levels...

paisjpq

11-08-2006, 10:51 AM

See I dont really think that a Grade II should count less. The Arkansas Derby is a Grade II. Why should that count differently from the Bluegrass, SA Derby or the Wood?
I think that's a tough call really...on the one hand weighting those races would help preserve the heritage and prestige of those important grade 1's, By making them worth the most on a points system they would naturally be the targets of the best 3 YO (not that they aren't already) but on the other hand forcing an owner to choose between chasing glory and chasing money is a tough thing to do...some of the newer graded stakes offer a chance at a huge payday...it would be tough if they were worth less on a point's scale, at least from an owner's perspective.

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 10:52 AM

Bullsheet, because you can't be certain he'll be a better 4YO than 3YO. Flower Alley? You can only compare WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.

And why is that fair? You're comparing a 3 year old to a 4 year old...

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 10:53 AM

That is certainly an issue I have with the grading committee. I'd be fine with putting the Blue Grass/SA Derby/Wood/Arkansas Derby/Florida Derby equal, then putting the Lane's End, Gotham, Santa Catalina, Rebel, FOY a notch below, then putting the Southwest, Holy Bull, and whatever other February preps there are a notch below that. I dont know. I mean, everyone would be poiting to one of the races with the top pts. What happens if the SA Derby over subscribes and your horses doesnt get in. It isnt like you can immediately change your plans. I like your thinking and I think you are onto to something. Lets tweak this a bit and see what we come up with.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 10:55 AM

Bullsheet, because you can't be certain he'll be a better 4YO than 3YO. Flower Alley? You can only compare WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.

Sorry man, I totally disagree....90% of horses get better as 4-year-olds and he DEFINATELY had the pedigree to be a better older horse.....Remember, the horse only had a handful of races and only raced for like 9 months and was very unseasoned because he could never find anyone who could run with him most of his career....the first battle-test he recieved was last Saturday and now we unfortunately won't get to see how uch he would have improved and benefitted from it....

Say what you will, this horse had as much natural ability and talent than any other horse that has run the last 15-20 years.....I really believe that...There is no right or wrong with that belief because it is all specualtion because normal people won't believe it until you prove it on the track, and unfortunately he'll never get that opportunity....sucks, but I saw enough to have that opinion of him....

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 10:56 AM

I dont know. I mean, everyone would be poiting to one of the races with the top pts. What happens if the SA Derby over subscribes and your horses doesnt get in. It isnt like you can immediately change your plans. I like your thinking and I think you are onto to something. Lets tweak this a bit and see what we come up with.

Isn't that what we should be going for? Get everyone in those five preps to earn their way in instead of getting in based on running second in the Delta Jackpot as a 2yo? If you have a bad day in the big prep then you have points from your prior races to fallback on but if your trainer campaigned you too lightly and you flop on the big day then you get what you deserved for putting all your eggs in one basket.

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 10:58 AM

Isn't that what we should be going for? Get everyone in those five preps to earn their way in instead of getting in based on running second in the Delta Jackpot as a 2yo? If you have a bad day in the big prep then you have points from your prior races to fallback on but if your trainer campaigned you too lightly and you flop on the big day then you get what you deserved for putting all your eggs in one basket.

Wouldn't that destroy a lot of fields for other races, though?

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 11:01 AM

Wouldn't that destroy a lot of fields for other races, though?I think it would. If your horse runs 4th in the SA Derby and some horse wins the Lanes End, who is to say that the 4th place finish it below a weak Grade II. Again, I like the thinking, I just think we need to tweak it a bit. Make it sort of a combintation of things.

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 11:06 AM

I think it would. If your horse runs 4th in the SA Derby and some horse wins the Lanes End, who is to say that the 4th place finish it below a weak Grade II. Again, I like the thinking, I just think we need to tweak it a bit. Make it sort of a combintation of things.

I don't want a system where 4th in the SA Derby is better than winning the Lane's End. It would be more like winning the Lane's End is equivalent to 2nd in the SA Derby. Winning a Feb prep like the Holy Bull would be equivalent to 3rd in the SA Derby. It wouldn't alter things at all for those races because the purse increases each month mirror the point increases. It would prevent the outliers like the Delta Jackpot or graded turf races or graded sprints from having too much of an impact and would correct issues like the Arkansas Derby counting for more than the Wood Memorial because the purse is higher.

philcski

11-08-2006, 11:09 AM

And why is that fair? You're comparing a 3 year old to a 4 year old...

The point was Cunningham said he was better than Ghostzapper, so I compared what they have done. It's unfair to us as racing fans to not be able to see him as a 4YO potential all time great, but since we won't we'll have to base our comparisons on what they both did on track. And at this point, he's good- but not an all time great.
I for one don't think he's even the best of his generation.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 11:25 AM

The point was Cunningham said he was better than Ghostzapper, so I compared what they have done. It's unfair to us as racing fans to not be able to see him as a 4YO potential all time great, but since we won't we'll have to base our comparisons on what they both did on track. And at this point, he's good- but not an all time great.
I for one don't think he's even the best of his generation.

That is why OPINIONS are great and widely diverse... :) if not, there would be no need for a website like Derbytrail....it is good to hear different people's opinions and the best thing is that nobody is right and we are all right at the same time....thats what makes it interesting in the debate...

I doubt many people come on here for handicapping hints ;)

paisjpq

11-08-2006, 11:35 AM

I doubt many people come on here for handicapping hints ;)
that is an absolute insult to Steve and to all the people who DO indeed visit the site for his Handicapping tips...don't you think?

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 11:43 AM

that is an absolute insult to Steve and to all the people who DO indeed visit the site for his Handicapping tips...don't you think?

Oh God, here we go again.....NO Bethani, it is not an insult to Steve....Gus and I give as many selections as anyone on this site...it is what it is....I was simply counting the number of thread views in the Paddock area versus the Selections area...it is pure math..

I have OBVIOUSLY made an enemy with you and you are always now going to spin my posts in a negative light going forward...very unfortunate :( Steve knows where I stand with him.....Sorry you feel this way

P.S. - The stats are there for anyone to see and it appears as though well under 10% of the posts and views are in the Selections section, while the Paddock area is easily the most popular section....that is NOT my opinion, that is fact...sorry for your misinterretation - and now perhaps I am the one who deserves an apology

It doesn't have to be like this......

paisjpq

11-08-2006, 11:49 AM

Oh God, here we go again.....NO Bethani, it is not an insult to Steve....Gus and I give as many selections as anyone on this site...it is what it is....I was simply counting the number of thread views in the Paddock area versus the Selections area...it is pure math..

I have OBVIOUSLY made an enemy with you and you are always now going to spin my posts in a negative light going forward...very unfortunate :( Steve knows where I stand with him.....Sorry you feel this way

P.S. - The stats are there for anyone to see and it appears as though well under 10% of the posts and views are in the Selections section, while the Paddock area is easily the most popular section....that is NOT my opinion, that is fact...
please...you are creating spin here not me...I was hardly suggesting that the only reason people visit the site is for handicapping but for you to suggest that that is not why they are here is ridiculous...and an insult to steve.

Revolution

11-08-2006, 11:50 AM

that is an absolute insult to Steve and to all the people who DO indeed visit the site for his Handicapping tips...don't you think?

I can guarantee nobody here visits this site primarily for handcapping tips, although I did give out Invasor if you read my selections. :)

Revolution

11-08-2006, 11:52 AM

please...you are creating spin here not me...I was hardly suggesting that the only reason people visit the site is for handicapping but for you to suggest that that is not why they are here is ridiculous...and an insult to steve.

You are spinning so hard we should call you Bill O'Reilly. How anyone can read his post as an insult is comical. Me calling you Bill O'Reilly is an insult though. :eek:

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 11:52 AM

paisjpq

11-08-2006, 11:54 AM

You are spinning so hard we should call you Bill O'Reilly. How anyone can read his post as an insult is comical. Me calling you Bill O'Reilly is an insult though. :eek:
now you are insulting the poeple who think Bill O'reilly is telling the truth about his no spin zone.

Revolution

11-08-2006, 11:56 AM

now you are insulting the poeple who think Bill O'reilly is telling the truth about his no spin zone.

Yes I am, and that is no spin. I can insult that idiot Keith Olbermann if you want me to be "fair and balanced" but I think Olbermann only has about 5 viewers so nobody probably knows who he is. :eek:

Back to Scat Daddy, very poor performance by him in my opinion. Makes me think Nobiz like Shobiz might not be all that afterall.

Pointg5

11-08-2006, 11:59 AM

bern was all out and got beat ...hes a good horse who qot get beat by a fresher very nice horse who moved at the right time....there was no looking in the eye..javy didnt see him till he moved past..do i think if they raced in three weeks time who would win ..it would be bern....but invasor is a very nice horse who should get the credit and the cash...they had a game plan and it worked..

Kasept mentioned when he spoke to Matz about Round Pond that he ran her in the Beldame for seasoning, I think he said something like a race is the equivalent to 5 workouts...She wasn't cranked for the Beldame, but would get enough out of it to be ready for the BC...I believe if Invasior ran in the JCGC he would have won by more on Sat...That was a long layoff and to run like that is a credit to Mcglaughlin, he had Closing Arguement ready to run a great Derby with only two starts, so he's pretty good at doing that...Also, it's not like Bernardini was over run, his races were spaced and he was in training the whole time which is a credit to Albertrani and Bernardini being such a balanced horse, he could stay in training...I believe Bernardini ran his race, he wasn't good enough, no disgrace, he will win 3yo of the year...Some people won't admit(not you specifically), that they overvalued the horse, that's okay, maybe they'll learn or next time they make such projections we will know that they are probably not as good as they think they are...

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 12:00 PM

That is why OPINIONS are great and widely diverse... :) if not, there would be no need for a website like Derbytrail....it is good to hear different people's opinions and the best thing is that nobody is right and we are all right at the same time....thats what makes it interesting in the debate...

I doubt many people come on here for handicapping hints ;)

" ...the best thing is that nobody is right and we are all right at the same time ... "

That is specifically, and exactly, false. And, frankly, it speaks volumes. You seem to think that, regardless of results, whatever opinions you have are correct as apparently it is the horse that was wrong...not you. However, some opinions are prescient and correct and are proven so and many are neither and are proven wrong. This is what happens in racing. This is important at the windows but not in cyberspace. It becomes more and more apparent where different posters make their bets so to speak.

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 12:04 PM

Kasept mentioned when he spoke to Matz about Round Pond that he ran her in the Beldame for seasoning, I think he said something like a race is the equivalent to 5 workouts...She wasn't cranked for the Beldame, but would get enough out of it to be ready for the BC...I believe if Invasior ran in the JCGC he would have won by more on Sat...That was a long layoff and to run like that is a credit to Mcglaughlin, he had Closing Arguement ready to run a great Derby with only two starts, so he's pretty good at doing that...Also, it's not like Bernardini was over run, his races were spaced and he was in training the whole time which is a credit to Albertrani and Bernardini being such a balanced horse, he could stay in training...I believe Bernardini ran his race, he wasn't good enough, no disgrace, he will win 3yo of the year...Some people won't admit(not you specifically), that they overvalued the horse, that's okay, maybe they'll learn or next time they make such projections we will know that they are probably not as good as they think they are...
you are correct...i wanted bern to win as a fan /as a gambler at even money no...

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 12:05 PM

please thats why you put the link to your capt obv plays...chalk kills..

Really? I thought Happy Ticket - who would have won at 13-1 with Round Pond's rail rally trip - and Street Sense at double digits were decent non-chalk angles....Who cares? It is what it is....if you (or anybody) EVER take any of my selections and play them with expectations then I have failed to do what I want to do. The whole point of handicapping IMO is to try and see people's angles on why they like horses and then come to your own conclusions based on your convictions......it should be an education tool more than an investment analysis IMO....

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 12:09 PM

Man, you are one miserable, negative, unhappy guy.

I have never seen one post from you that wasn't angry or hostile. Maybe you should give this game up. Ther's a lot of othert stuff a guy can do with his time and life if he is in so much pain.

The audience you're playing to on here is about 50 people. MOST are just kids that are hoping to make their first $50,000. Is it so important to you what they think of your posting rehashed periodical articles and heresay?

Go find a broad (if she can stomach you) and take her out on the town. See if you can make it through the night without telling her about your "world influencing" race track acquaintances.

As far as my handicapping ability, how you or anyone rates it does me no good or bad. I win a lot of money (be that as it may) and when I can no longer accomplish this I'm gone in a NY minute.

I've said many times, "every imbecile with a pencil picks winners". What's in the vault at the end (however you choose to determine that) is ALL that counts.

I'm confused, did you write that to blackthroatedwind or to yourself?

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-08-2006, 12:10 PM

Really? I thought Happy Ticket - who would have won at 13-1 with Round Pond's rail rally trip - and Street Sense at double digits were decent non-chalk angles....Who cares? It is what it is....if you (or anybody) EVER take any of my selections and play them with expectations then I have failed to do what I want to do. The whole point of handicapping IMO is to try and see people's angles on why they like horses and then come to your own conclusions based on your convictions......it should be an education tool more than an investment analysis IMO....
of course .. the would have one angle is great...and most had street sence here...ma red rocks ?...education..i think not..but in the end you get payed to do it and i just get payed..at the windows..

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 12:11 PM

" ...the best thing is that nobody is right and we are all right at the same time ... "

That is specifically, and exactly, false. And, frankly, it speaks volumes. You seem to think that, regardless of results, whatever opinions you have are correct as apparently it is the horse that was wrong...not you. However, some opinions are prescient and correct and are proven so and many are neither and are proven wrong. This is what happens in racing. This is important at the windows but not in cyberspace. It becomes more and more apparent where different posters make their bets so to speak.

OPINION :

–noun 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

...you have your opinions and you come to a conclusion on them as they are the right beliefes in your mind....mine are the right beliefs in my mind, thus I am always right to me....there is no fact here, Andy

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 12:17 PM

The point was Cunningham said he was better than Ghostzapper, so I compared what they have done. It's unfair to us as racing fans to not be able to see him as a 4YO potential all time great, but since we won't we'll have to base our comparisons on what they both did on track. And at this point, he's good- but not an all time great.
I for one don't think he's even the best of his generation.

I thought Barbaro was better, but that's just my lousy opinion. :) With that said, I don't think that Bernardini and Ghostzapper should even be compared since it's unfair to both... what was done by Bernie as a 3 year old definitely topped out GZ's 3 year old season, and what was done as a 4 year old for GZ defnitely topped out Bernie's 4 year old season, SINCE HE DIDN'T HAVE ONE! LMAO...

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 12:18 PM

of course .. the would have one angle is great...and most had street sence here...ma red rocks ?...education..i think not..but in the end you get payed to do it and i just get payed..at the windows..

I hate just giving picks out without giving an angle...its somethinmg I don't like to do because anyone can do it.....YES, I do believe an analysts primary intention SHOULD be to educate and treat handicapping as an educational tool and take that approach far moreso than just throwing out picks and expecting people to invest in them, but that is just my opinion....we neeed to teach more people about how and why we like cartain horses to get them better educated so that they can feel confident betting on their OWN convictions - which is half the fun of it....nobody will really invest money on the opinions of others.... belive people play more and invest more based on their personal education level - and this port frankly does not do a good enough job of educating casual bettors and new customers on ghwo to play the horses....t is one of the sport's greatest downfalls IMO.....

BTW, Red Rocks cost me about anywhere from $2,800 - $4,000 in my Pick 3s :mad: :D

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 12:18 PM

OPINION :

–noun 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

...you have your opinions and you come to a conclusion on them as they are the right beliefes in your mind....mine are the right beliefs in my mind, thus I am always right to me....there is no fact here, Andy

Joel, I think we all know the definition of " opinion ". However, there are different kinds of opinions. Some are personal preference ( Food, music, literature, art, etc ) and some are predictive ( " in my opinion such-and-such horse will win Saturday ) and these kind are proven right or wrong over time. Surely you know this and can differentiate between which kind of opinions we are discussing here.

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 12:23 PM

Dude, my head is spinning... I need something domestic, light and cold. :D

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 12:26 PM

Joel, I think we all know the definition of " opinion ". However, there are different kinds of opinions. Some are personal preference ( Food, music, literature, art, etc ) and some are predictive ( " in my opinion such-and-such horse will win Saturday ) and these kind are proven right or wrong over time. Surely you know this and can differentiate between which kind of opinions we are discussing here.

So you are saying that my opinion of Bernie being one of the more talented horses in the last 15-20 years was somehow proved otherwise by fact?....I don't think so, not after one race where he didn't fire big and never had a chance to run at the peak of his career......

Remember, most of the all-time greats lost races - Does that make them not great IN YOUR OPINION? :confused:

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 12:39 PM

So you are saying that my opinion of Bernie being one of the more talented horses in the last 15-20 years was somehow proved otherwise by fact?....I don't think so, not after one race where he didn't fire big and never had a chance to run at the peak of his career......

Remember, most of the all-time greats lost races - Does that make them not great IN YOUR OPINION? :confused:

I think you are determined to not admit you were wrong IN ANY WAY. What you really should do is temper your specific enthusiam to a realistic level. Bernardini is a fine horse, most likely one of the best hundred or so in the time period you mention. But, his performances on the racetrack completely belie your opinion of him. Saying something is so does not make it so. A horse has only his performances to speak for him.

I have always thought Bernardini was a nice horse. I also thought highly of Invasor and was far from surprised at Saturday's result. They were two evenly matched horses who would probably split decisions fairly evenly if they met a number of times. But, make no mistake, neither has done anything on the track to place them in any kind of elite group.

Horses who were absolutely better? Off the top of my head....Ghostzapper, Holy Bull, Skip Away, Formal Gold, Candy Ride, Tiznow, Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, probably Cigar, AP Indy, Dubai Millenium. But the list of comparable horses is endless...Point Given, Medaglia D'Oro, maybe even Saint Liam, Smarty Jones, Silver Charm, Touch Gold, Lido Palace, Street Cry, Left Bank, Congaree, Will's Way...I'm sure you get the drift.

You feel some sort of connection to Bernardini, which is great, but that doesn't alter his resume. What he is/was is another in a long line of nice horses who has a reasonable resume of success.

brianwspencer

11-08-2006, 12:40 PM

Dude, my head is spinning... I need something domestic, light and cold. :D

No way my friend. Buy American when it comes to things like cars.

Buy foreign when it comes to light and cold things that are simultaneously refreshing.

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 12:42 PM

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 12:42 PM

No way my friend. Buy American when it comes to things like cars.

Buy foreign when it comes to light and cold things that are simultaneously refreshing.Light and cold---that describes most American women--ha ha ha.

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 12:45 PM

No way my friend. Buy American when it comes to things like cars.

Buy foreign when it comes to light and cold things that are simultaneously refreshing.

That's hilarious... we are of opposite opinions...

I buy my cars foreign (love Toyotas) and I'm a domestic beer drinker. Dammit... it's 5:00 somewhere, isn't it? HAHA! :D

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 12:46 PM

Light and cold---that describes most American women--ha ha ha.

Nah, most American women are FAT and cold. :eek: :p

eurobounce

11-08-2006, 12:48 PM

Nah, most American women are FAT and cold. :eek: :pWell I was trying to be a little nice. But fat and cold is better than hairy and bitchy (French women).

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 01:11 PM

I think you are determined to not admit you were wrong IN ANY WAY. What you really should do is temper your specific enthusiam to a realistic level. Bernardini is a fine horse, most likely one of the best hundred or so in the time period you mention. But, his performances on the racetrack completely belie your opinion of him. Saying something is so does not make it so. A horse has only his performances to speak for him.

I have always thought Bernardini was a nice horse. I also thought highly of Invasor and was far from surprised at Saturday's result. They were two evenly matched horses who would probably split decisions fairly evenly if they met a number of times. But, make no mistake, neither has done anything on the track to place them in any kind of elite group.

Horses who were absolutely better? Off the top of my head....Ghostzapper, Holy Bull, Skip Away, Formal Gold, Candy Ride, Tiznow, Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, probably Cigar, AP Indy, Dubai Millenium. But the list of comparable horses is endless...Point Given, Medaglia D'Oro, maybe even Saint Liam, Smarty Jones, Silver Charm, Touch Gold, Lido Palace, Street Cry, Left Bank, Congaree, Will's Way...I'm sure you get the drift.

You feel some sort of connection to Bernardini, which is great, but that doesn't alter his resume. What he is/was is another in a long line of nice horses who has a reasonable resume of success.

And you are certainly entitled to your OPINIONS ;) I've seen most of those horses that you mentioned run and he is every bit as good as they were from a raw talent perspective IMO. Keep in mind that those horses got to run as older horses, which I think is VERY improtant to keep in to perspective because most of those were at their best as OLDER horses and not 3yos....

Also, I think Invasor is a nice horse, but I also think that if he and Bernardini were to race 10 times, I reaqlly believe Bernie would win decisively 8 of the 10 times if they were both 100% - that is just my OPINION and can never be proven as fact......

The way Javier had to scrub on Bernardini going into the far turn I believe was evidence that he was not getting over the track well and he got beat by a horse who was getting over the track better than he was that day....it happens....that is why horses like Secretariat, etc. have lost before....

ArlJim78

11-08-2006, 01:12 PM

So you are saying that my opinion of Bernie being one of the more talented horses in the last 15-20 years was somehow proved otherwise by fact?....I don't think so, not after one race where he didn't fire big and never had a chance to run at the peak of his career......

Remember, most of the all-time greats lost races - Does that make them not great IN YOUR OPINION? :confused:
He is a very nice horse and unfortunately he was retired too early for us to really know him. But,
He is not an all-time great because he never did anything great. The all-time greats you're referring to that lost races also did great things. Name one great thing Bernardini did. He had one chance on the track to show us something great and he came up somewhat short of great.
It doesn't make him great just because he won easy with Durkin screaming "OHHH its hot out and Bernardini didn't even break a sweat!!!" He didn't win any battles and he didn't overcome great adversity to win a race.
He also didn't accomplish enough on the track to say with absolute certainty that he was one of the more talented horses in the past 15-20 years.

You can take that opinion and no one can say you're wrong because of his short career, but don't act like there was enough actual racing evidence to reach your conclusion.

LARHAGE

11-08-2006, 01:13 PM

LMAO!!! Good lord, I haven't laughed all week... but that was hilarious. :D
Me too! I actually laughed out loud, and I'm at work! :D

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 01:17 PM

He is a very nice horse and unfortunately he was retired too early for us to really know him. But,
He is not an all-time great because he never did anything great. The all-time greats you're referring to that lost races also did great things. Name one great thing Bernardini did. He had one chance on the track to show us something great and he came up somewhat short of great.
It doesn't make him great just because he won easy with Durkin screaming "OHHH its hot out and Bernardini didn't even break a sweat!!!" He didn't win any battles and he didn't overcome great adversity to win a race.
He also didn't accomplish enough on the track to say with absolute certainty that he was one of the more talented horses in the past 15-20 years.

You can take that opinion and no one can say you're wrong because of his short career, but don't act like there was enough actual racing evidence to reach your conclusion.

An all-time great - No, he was not - but only because you have to prove that on the track and he wasn't given the chance...

One of the most naturally talented horses to ever grace a racetrack - Yes, at least he was the most talented I have seen...his upside to be a better older horse was insane....the horse had ZERO weaknesses and that is how judge horses...his biggest weakness was his trainer to me - and that isn't really even fair to Tom. How good of a horse ould he have been if he got the Ghostzapper treatment in the Frankel/Allday barn as a 4-year-old?...Scary to think.....:eek:

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 01:18 PM

And you are certainly entitled to your OPINIONS ;) I've seen most of those horses that you mentioned run and he is every bit as good as they were from a raw talent perspective IMO. Keep in mind that those horses got to run as older horses, which I think is VERY improtant to keep in to perspective because most of those were at their best as OLDER horses and not 3yos....

Also, I think Invasor is a nice horse, but I also think that if he and Bernardini were to race 10 times, I reaqlly believe Bernie would win decisively 8 of the 10 times if they were both 100% - that is just my OPINION and can never be proven as fact......

The way Javier had to scrub on Bernardini going into the far turn I believe was evidence that he was not getting over the track well and he got beat by a horse who was getting over the track better than he was that day....it happens....that is why horses like Secretariat, etc. have lost before....

You can believe what you want, and maybe you're right, but you seem to make too many excuses for the horses you like. Maybe Castellano was scrubbing on him because he was finally in a competitive spot. It isn't as though his speed figure was substantially different than his other races.

Suggesting he would beat Invasor 8 out of 10 times, especially being that he is already 0-1 is outlandish. You are underrating one and overrating the other. The simple fact is what happened Saturday disproved your previous opinions, so to speak. You were wrong about Bernardini, so what, but continuing to suggest something that is shown to not be true doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Remember, when he needed more, he didn't have it, and that is specifically in contradiction to many of your pre-race comments.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 01:20 PM

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 01:23 PM

It's too bad that Bernardini isn't running next year...

The way this topic has turned is pointless... he will never have a shot at proving anything because he isn't running again.

SniperSB23

11-08-2006, 01:27 PM

No, the only thing I believe I was wrong about is that he lost the race because that is the only TRUE fact that you can point to. He didn't fire, but so what? We'll never know how good he really was and it will all be specualtion and OPINIONS on how good the horse really was.....period :)

Bernardini would have NEVER let Sun King take him to a photo finish, but obviously that race was probably not Invasor's best, right? Think about it....we're talking about Sun King here :rolleyes:

How is beating a horse that lost the Met Mile and the Whitney by a nose, two of the most prestigious races in the country for older horses, a negative for Invasor? Don't make the mistake of confusing 10 furlong Sun King with the 8-9 furlong Sun King on his best days. Using Sun King as a slap in the face for Invasor is about as relevant as using the horses that beat Bernardini in his first race as a slap in the face for him.

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 01:28 PM

No, the only thing I believe I was wrong about is that he lost the race because that is the only TRUE fact that you can point to. He didn't fire, but so what? We'll never know how good he really was and it will all be specualtion and OPINIONS on how good the horse really was.....period :)

Bernardini would have NEVER let Sun King take him to a photo finish, but obviously that race was probably not Invasor's best, right? Think about it....we're talking about Sun King here :rolleyes:

It's really amazing. Continuing to suggest that Bernardini somehow didn't run his race, because to not say that allows for the possibility that you overrated him ( dramatically ), even though it flies in the face of logic, is actually incredible. I guess speed figures are only relevent to you when they somehow prove your point.

Not as incredible, however, as how you consistently deviate from the real conversation with some complete nonsequitor to somehow deflect from the real issue. It doesn't strengthen your argument....it weakens it substantially.

Pointg5

11-08-2006, 01:29 PM

It's too bad that Bernardini isn't running next year...

The way this topic has turned is pointless... he will never have a shot at proving anything because he isn't running again.

That's true and to think he would have been better is no guarantee, he ran some nice sheet#'s, probably more consistent than any 3yo, but maybe he was done developing and was just an early developer, we don't know...But he never hit a Ghost Zapper, St. Liam, Commentator like number...

Coach Pants

11-08-2006, 01:35 PM

Invasor would probably lose 8 out of 9 to Bern because the fields wouldn't be that large. Probably would avg. 5.4 horses in the 9 races and Bern more than likely wouldn't have to suffer for being asked too early or have to move five wide, you know, like most champions of days past.

Pointg5

11-08-2006, 01:39 PM

Coach Pants

11-08-2006, 01:44 PM

Also, the Great Horses did lose, but they ran more frequently and horses now are timed for big events, so one loss does diminish your standing. On the biggest day, he didn't win and he lost the HOY because of that....
His downfall was overconfidence by the connections. He was moved too early and too wide and simply didn't have the stamina to finish. And to think some were predicting the track record to fall.

Cannon Shell

11-08-2006, 01:46 PM

I know this will flip a few people out and I am the last person to knock a trainer because I understand all the little things that go on beyond the publics eye but... I think that Albertrani ran a short horse. I have been trying to understand how a lightly raced three year old that wins as easily as he did in his prep could be fit enough to go a mile and a quarter in a big field against the best competition that he ever faced off off with works that barely broke 103 and in the final case 105? It just is hard for me to believe that he could be dead-ready fit with that kind of work schedule. He doesn't gallop at a high speed and his works are slow for a bad horse let alone an ultra talented one. That's not saying that he wasn't 95% but in a bigger field where he was forced to lose a little ground on a surface that wasn't especially fast, his not having a hard race or work for over a month and a half may have left him a little below where he should have been.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 01:53 PM

It's really amazing. Continuing to suggest that Bernardini somehow didn't run his race, because to not say that allows for the possibility that you overrated him ( dramatically ), even though it flies in the face of logic, is actually incredible. I guess speed figures are only relevent to you when they somehow prove your point.

Not as incredible, however, as how you consistently deviate from the real conversation with some complete nonsequitor to somehow deflect from the real issue. It doesn't strengthen your argument....it weakens it substantially.

Okay, lets talk sheets if you want to bring in speed figures.....He was running negative 2s and negative 1s when just in a gallop in winning some of his races earlier this year. If you really belive that Saturday was his best effort then you must not have been following the horse well this year. I knew he wasn't running his best race Sat. when they went into the far turn...it happens.....it is all specualtion that it was or was not his best race....

Answer me this:

If Secreatriat would have retired after his Wood defeat to Angle Light and Sham prior to his Triple Crown run, would that have meant that he would have been not as good as Angle Light and Sham to you?....please :rolleyes:

I'm sorry you don't have the instincts to recognize raw talent when it is in front of you, which may be because you are so blinded by the fact that you don't like the big shots in this sports and their horses are always going to start off behind the eight ball with you....

You are entitled to your opinion like we all are ion this great country, but to say for fact that Bernardini was proved Saturday to be not as talented as he was made out to be is just pure specualtion - and STRICLTY your OPINION

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 01:55 PM

It doesn't strengthen your argument....it weakens it substantially.

Again, this is absurd....there is no righ, or kind of right, or maybe right, or anything like that....there is no strength of opinions and closer to the fact or further from the facts in stating opinions....

It is my opinion that he was one of the most talented horses since the Bid and that he was the best horse I have ever seen - and I don't need anyone to validate that....

Pointg5

11-08-2006, 01:56 PM

Isn't it possible your instincts are not as good as you think?

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 01:57 PM

Isn't it possible your instincts are not as good as you think?

Maybe...it is also possible that North Korea will nuke us tomorrow :D

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 02:03 PM

I never used any of your quotes in that post...not one - intentionally anyway. Quit giving yourself so much credit :D

Ohhpp, guess you deleted the post.....

Pointg5

11-08-2006, 02:07 PM

Maybe...it is also possible that North Korea will nuke us tomorrow :D

Okay, that's fine...

If he would have won, we would have seen a 100 posts from you telling how right you were, even you can't deny that(truthfully), so by winning it proves you right, but losing doesn't prove you wrong...Can't be both ways...

LARHAGE

11-08-2006, 02:11 PM

That's hilarious... we are of opposite opinions...

I buy my cars foreign (love Toyotas) and I'm a domestic beer drinker. Dammit... it's 5:00 somewhere, isn't it? HAHA! :D

Hey, I'm with you, I too love Toyota's, but as far as men, prefer domestic! :D

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 02:12 PM

Why does there have to be a right or wrong regarding this? I saw the race unfold in a different manner, and we all know that "opinions are like a$$holes... everybody's got one." :D

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 02:14 PM

Hey, I'm with you, I too love Toyota's, but as far as men, prefer domestic! :D

I'm with you there!!! :cool:

Pointg5

11-08-2006, 02:16 PM

Why does there have to be a right or wrong regarding this? I saw the race unfold in a different manner, and we all know that "opinions are like a$$holes... everybody's got one." :D

That's true, I have formed my opinions and I was rewarded for them, but I can guarantee I will have a wrong opinion in the future...It's a problem with most people, not just on this board, they never will admit they are wrong, I can't save them all....

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 02:26 PM

Okay, that's fine...

If he would have won, we would have seen a 100 posts from you telling how right you were, even you can't deny that(truthfully), so by winning it proves you right, but losing doesn't prove you wrong...Can't be both ways...

Ask yourself this, would you have came on here and posted that I was right if he had won?...This is absurd...who cares?....the only thing I am saying is that I don't think he ran his best race and that I believe he is still one of the best horses in the last 15-20 years.......yes he lost, that is a fact...

Geez..:eek:

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 02:28 PM

That's true, I have formed my opinions and I was rewarded for them, but I can guarantee I will have a wrong opinion in the future...It's a problem with most people, not just on this board, they never will admit they are wrong, I can't save them all....

The only thing I was wrong about is that he lost the race, which most handicappers are wrong more times than they are righ about a race...big deal

You are also considered a good hitter in the Major Leagues if you fail only 70% of the time......

Pointg5

11-08-2006, 02:42 PM

Ask yourself this, would you have came on here and posted that I was right if he had won?...This is absurd...who cares?....the only thing I am saying is that I don't think he ran his best race and that I believe he is still one of the best horses in the last 15-20 years.......yes he lost, that is a fact...

Geez..:eek:

Yes, I would have admitted you were right and he could have been a great horse. I have admitted I was wrong before, it's no big deal...

If you want to believe that he's one of the best in the last 15-20 years, that's fine, what I saw was a horse who didn't have the other best horse in the race breakdown and he was faced with adversity, and he wasn't a great, but still very good.

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 06:14 PM

One of the funniest threads in a long time. Also one of the most telling. It's very easy to come on here and pat yourself on the back, and say how you should be arrested for robbery because you caught a $7 horse. But when you make claims for MONTHS about how good the horses you like are, and how you predict they will win specific races, well when they don't, be a man and admit it. The "they didn't run their race thing" is lame. We have all had to listen about Scat Daddy for months. There were excuses after the Hopeful, he had a bad trip. Then when he won, it was I told you so. Then we hear about how 2 turns will be no problem, and he'll win the Juvy. Well he didn't, and the funny thing is, no one would have said a word, had you not gloated after the Champagne. Opinions are one thing, yeah we all have them. And in this game, you will be wrong a lot more than you will be right. but when you lay it all out there on 2 horses, and they both don't win, well you have to eat some crow. And suprisingly Joel you aren't. Grow up. Had either one had won, could you imagine the threads we would have had to read. I can see them now. Instead of owning up, you hide for a few days, and when you come out of your hole you are making excuses. Pathetic......

I knew Scat Daddy was not going to run well when I saw him in the flesh making the walk over to the paddock for the race...his coat looked very dull as to say he wasn't at the top of his game after a hard and eventful 2-year-old campaign....

You grow up and realize that anything can happen in this sport...Secretariat also had his bad days and lost....so did Spectacular Bid and many of the other great ones, etc........it happens...they are not machines....

If you hold me down on how a horse is doing when I make a claim months before a race than that is just plain retarded.....If the horse looked good and ran his race and just got beat - then I would have admitted it...I have before and you'll probably see me do it again in the future....

I gave you this horse before he ever even lined up in the gate, and he is a Grade 1 winner and multiple graded stakes winner and top 2-year-old --- come back and talk to me when you can do that.....untill then, just shut up and try and learn a few things where you can while making your meaningless, uninformed, and uncredible posts.

Have a nice day :)

Five Star Derek

11-08-2006, 06:40 PM

Joel-Thanks a lot. You cost me fortune betting Scat Daddy thinking he's a lock. Just kidding. Actually I did ok on BC day. It would have been a great day if I didn't single Henny. Thought Henny was the lock of the day.
I knew Scat Daddy was not going to run well when I saw him in the flesh making the walk over to the paddock for the race...his coat looked very dull as to say he wasn't at the top of his game after a hard and eventful 2-year-old campaign....

You grow up and realize that anything can happen in this sport...Secretariat also had his bad days and lost....so did Spectacular Bid and many of the other great ones, etc........it happens...they are not machines....

If you hold me down on how a horse is doing when I make a claim months before a race than that is just plain retarded.....If the horse looked good and ran his race and just got beat - then I would have admitted it...I have before and you'll probably see me do it again in the future....

I gave you this horse before he ever even lined up in the gate, and he is a Grade 1 winner and multiple graded stakes winner and top 2-year-old --- come back and talk to me when you can do that.....untill then, just shut up and try and learn a few things where you can while making your meaningless, uninformed, and uncredible posts.

Have a nice day :)

Cajungator26

11-08-2006, 06:41 PM

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 06:56 PM

So it's retarded to hold you to your word? You were the one making the claim. Oh right this is the internet. The place where you can say whatever you want, and never be held accountable. But we both know had he won, you would have been on here Saturday night gloating. The thread would have resembled your post Champagne thread. Thats the thing, can you not see that all you are doing is making excuses. His coat didn't look good, and he has had a hard campaign. And stop acting like you were the only one that thought highly of this horse before his first start. He was 3-5 in his debut, and it was hardly a well kept secret that he was a good one. Lots of people knew it as well. It's cool, I'm comfortable with my credibilty, and I don't need to try and make myself feel better about myself by showing everyone who I know, and what I do. Can you say the same thing?

You are OBVIOUSLY an insecure person and know deep down that I know more than you about this game - or you would not be always trying to bust me on things.

Ask yourself these two things:

How many times have you commended me for being right when I presented insight on something that came true?....NONE

How many times have I ever responded to any of your threads in a negative fashion without being previously prevoked by you?.....NONE

Again, just sit back and absorb some knowledge for a few more years and you may actually learn something - perhaps enough so that you don't have to make so many insecure posts that do not contribute any value to this chat board.

For example, getting good enough to actually make BOLD predictions (imagine that) instead of being a follower who just enjoys coming on here to get off by busting on others who know more than you.

Stay uninformed and have a nice day. :)

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 06:59 PM

Joel-Thanks a lot. You cost me fortune betting Scat Daddy thinking he's a lock. Just kidding. Actually I did ok on BC day. It would have been a great day if I didn't single Henny. Thought Henny was the lock of the day.

Hey, I told everyone who would listen to use Street Sense...I would never have singled Scat Daddy, especially after he looked on the walkover....I used 4 horses in the race and they were Scat Daddy, C P West, Street Sense and Great Hunter - and I liked them in that order.....

Five Star Derek

11-08-2006, 07:09 PM

I used Street Sense, CQ, Scat Daddy, and CP West on top. Did fine in that race. I didn't like Great Hunter. He seems like a horse who doesn't have that killer instinct.
Hey, I told everyone who would listen to use Street Sense...I would never have singled Scat Daddy, especially after he looked on the walkover....I used 4 horses in the race and they were Scat Daddy, C P West, Street Sense and Great Hunter - and I liked them in that order.....

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 07:15 PM

Dude I hope you know more than I do, it's your job. But so what, does that mean I'm not right. For once stop deflecting. The original premise of this thread was to point out that those who were so high on Scat Daddy were oh so wrong. Now, since you took it upon yourself to be the #1 cheerleader, and to post your Champagne post race robbery thread, it was your time to eat some crow. No big suprise, you didn't, but it is quite a telling characteristic. While you are busy patting yourself on the back about how good you are, all of your BOLD predictions are failing. So I will commend you, like you so desperately need. Good job making BOLD (have to emphasize the bold part, because you're that good) predictions that were wrong. See I thought being good meant that you were right sometimes. But, I have now learned from you that being good means making BOLD, again emphasis on the bold, predictions, and no matter if you are right or wrong, you should be commended for making them. And FYI, I'm quite comfortable with myself, and my standing on this board. Can you say the same thing?

You're not worth my time so I'll be brief....

I think it is very evident to people who read mine and your posts that you are always trying to bust on someone and never adding any value, while I never would even initiate any sort of chat with you because I know you could never tell me anything that I want or need to know.....

Just sit back and take notes, young Skywalker.....you may learn something. ;)

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 07:17 PM

I used Street Sense, CQ, Scat Daddy, and CP West on top. Did fine in that race. I didn't like Great Hunter. He seems like a horse who doesn't have that killer instinct.

I would have never used Great Hunter if I hadn't seen him train that week...he looked great and you knew he would get the distance and set up with his closing style, but like you - I do have questions about how truly genuine he is.......

Cannon Shell

11-08-2006, 07:23 PM

I cant believe that Oracle has not picked up on my questioning of his fav trainer Albatrani !!!

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 07:30 PM

Will do Wilson. Please teach me how to pick chalk. And to never be held accountable for anything I say. And to make excuses when I lose. And to think I am way more important than I really am. And to always deflect when I am put in my place. These are lessons I can't wait to learn.

Again, just sit back and make your conservative posts while being nuetral and only attack people when you decide to go on offense - that style fits you perfect, homie :rolleyes:

Believe me, many on here know you have an elemenary knowledge of the game and only come on here to busts people's chops.....the funniest term I have heard someone describe you as on a PM is "DT petafile"....cracked me up..

Keep fighting the good fight, soldier :)

Pointg5

11-08-2006, 07:45 PM

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 07:56 PM

That's why people who use PM to bust on people are cowards, if you can't say it out in the open and be ready to defend the comments, calling someone something on PM is cowardly, even more cowardly than busting on someone on the message board, if you can actually get more cowardly than that...

Here's my PM to Dahoss:

Let it go, we all know the real story, it's very evident...

Busting on people PERIOD on the internet is laughable. My theory is that if you wouldn't do it in real life - which 99% of the people on here would not - then don't do it on the internet. It makes you look like a complete p us sy.

Personal attacks on people via the internet only reaffirms how insecure somebody is in real life and nothing more....it can be done without the consiquence of somebody knocking your f-ing block off - thats why you have losers who actually practice in it....

They may as well say "I'm a pu s sy" when attacking or busting on somebody over the internet.....

Danzig

11-08-2006, 08:03 PM

Why does there have to be a right or wrong regarding this? I saw the race unfold in a different manner, and we all know that "opinions are like a$$holes... everybody's got one." :D

...and no one thinks theirs stinks!

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 08:04 PM

I'm a pu s sy.

I knew that....the sky is blue too :D

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 08:06 PM

Honestly Wilson I am the exact same on here as I am in real life. I've never had my block knocked off though, but it sounds fun. And I have never said anything about you personally, because I don't know you personally. So stop whining. Again this whole thing spun, because you refuse to eat crow. The people that talked up Perfect Drift did. I admitted I was totally wrong about Invasor. Why can't you. See the way I look at it. People on the net that make BOLD predictions, only do so because they are on the net, and know there is no accountability. This is what you are.

I never said you made personal attacks about me......read it again

ArlJim78

11-08-2006, 10:46 PM

Wow! Just got in and did a re-cap of this entire thread. What drama and comedy. there were at least half a dozen genuine knee-slappers in here.
Thats to all for providing this entertainment.:D

Cunningham Racing

11-08-2006, 10:48 PM

Wow! Just got in and did a re-cap of this entire thread. What drama and comedy. there were at least half a dozen genuine knee-slappers in here.
Thats to all for providing this entertainment.:D

We do what we can and its all for you ;)

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 10:48 PM

ArlJim78

11-08-2006, 10:53 PM

And I paid $10.50 to see Borat.
did you? what was your take?
I'm thinking to see it this w/e.

blackthroatedwind

11-08-2006, 10:57 PM

did you? what was your take?
I'm thinking to see it this w/e.

Not to digress from the seriousness of this thread, but...

It was very funny. I love Da Ali G Show and he's clearly best when putting people on. I'm not really a fan of gross out type humor and this movie has some but overall I laughed pretty much the whole way through. It's probably a little long ( though I think it's less than 90 minutes ) but it's a big chuckle.

ArlJim78

11-08-2006, 11:03 PM

Not to digress from the seriousness of this thread, but...

It was very funny. I love Da Ali G Show and he's clearly best when putting people on. I'm not really a fan of gross out type humor and this movie has some but overall I laughed pretty much the whole way through. It's probably a little long ( though I think it's less than 90 minutes ) but it's a big chuckle.
thanks for the re-cap. i think i'm going to like it too because i also really like the D' Ali G show.

ok then, sorry for the OT stuff.
this thread may now return to its previous serious tone.

ateamstupid

11-08-2006, 11:30 PM

Invasor accomplished far more "on the track" than Ghostzapper and St Liam. If you are looking at track results only (no sheets etc etc) Then Invasor has been better than those two I mentioned.

You honestly believe this? Wow..

I don't think that Bernardini and Ghostzapper should even be compared since it's unfair to both... what was done by Bernie as a 3 year old definitely topped out GZ's 3 year old season, and what was done as a 4 year old for GZ defnitely topped out Bernie's 4 year old season, SINCE HE DIDN'T HAVE ONE! LMAO...

BINGO, Cajun..

Coach Pants

11-08-2006, 11:43 PM

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/getchadsucked/mfight.gif

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/getchadsucked/dancin.gif

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/getchadsucked/drunk.gif

Everybody dance now!

eurobounce

11-09-2006, 12:10 AM

I can't believe I just read this. I really can't. There can't be people out there who honestly believe this. It's impossible.

BINGO, Cajun..How can you think differently. Lets recap here. Now we are only comparing on the track. We arent comparing times, sheet numbers, etc etc.

Ghostzapper
4 Grade I wins (Classic, Vosburgh, Woodward, Metropolitan) He has 9 wins from 11 starts for earnings of $3.4mm. Horse of the year in 2004

Invasor
4 Grade I wins ( Classic, Whitney, Suburban, Pimlico Special) To me these are more prestigous races than what Zapper won. Also, Invasor has 9 wins from 10 starts with earnings of $3.6mm.

Invasor will be crowned HOY of the year for the 2nd time.

So Invasor has won more money and has a better win % and has won more prestigious Grade I races. In addition, he is still racing. Now looking at these two it is pretty even. But, the edge goes to Invasor based "on the track."

blackthroatedwind

11-09-2006, 12:26 AM

How can you think differently. Lets recap here. Now we are only comparing on the track. We arent comparing times, sheet numbers, etc etc.

Ghostzapper
4 Grade I wins (Classic, Vosburgh, Woodward, Metropolitan) He has 9 wins from 11 starts for earnings of $3.4mm. Horse of the year in 2004

Invasor
4 Grade I wins ( Classic, Whitney, Suburban, Pimlico Special) To me these are more prestigous races than what Zapper won. Also, Invasor has 9 wins from 10 starts with earnings of $3.6mm.

Invasor will be crowned HOY of the year for the 2nd time.

So Invasor has won more money and has a better win % and has won more prestigious Grade I races. In addition, he is still racing. Now looking at these two it is pretty even. But, the edge goes to Invasor based "on the track."

I'm tired but I have to disagree with this. I like Invasor, I really do, but your comparisons are not terrific. First, saying Invasor won more prestigious races is sketchy at best. They both won the Classic, OK, the Whitney and Woodward are comparable names, the Met is bigger than the Suburban and the Vosburgh is bigger than the Pimlico Special. Also, the varying distances of these Grade 1s is a major feather in Ghostzapper's cap. Now, let's compare the competition. Woodward-Whitney. Ghostzapper defeated the following year's HOY and Classic winner Saint Liam by a head after being carried out more than ten paths in the stretch with the rest of the field WAY back. Invasor ran a terrific race in the Whitney, not getting a perfect trip ( stumbling early and moving too soon into a hot pace ) and held off Sun King by a head. Now, I love Sun King, I dream of him, he is my personal God of racing, but he aint no Saint Liam....and it pains me deeply to say that, write that and think that. Plus, it was a few lengths back to West Virginia and some Mark Hennig bum that routinely runs last in every stake race he is misplaced in.

I'm tired...can I go to bed and finish this tomorrow....or do you just want to admit you were a little hasty in this one?

By the way, Ghostzapper's speed figures were almost universally superior.

I like Invasor a lot...I really do. Ghostzapper would have chuckled at him....if he ever even noticed him.

By the way, have you recently watched a replay of Ghostzapper's Vosburgh? If not, please do, as I promise you that it is most enjoyable. Honestly, it may be one of the five most scintilating performances of any of our lifetimes. It was a thing of beauty. He aint even in the picture when the field turns for home...and he wins by almost seven.

Now I'm getting weepy.

eurobounce

11-09-2006, 12:30 AM

oracle80

11-09-2006, 06:06 AM

I cant believe that Oracle has not picked up on my questioning of his fav trainer Albatrani !!!

Whats to question? I agree with most everything you say about anything.

Cannon Shell

11-09-2006, 12:14 PM

Whats to question? I agree with most everything you say about anything.
Just thought you might enjoy a enquiry into how a horse who is good as Bernardini could get anything out of works so slow, considering your position of Senor Albatrani.

ateamstupid

11-09-2006, 01:10 PM

I am not comparing times or competition--just simply what they did on the track. The numbers do not lie. A better win % and more money earned and he is still racing. That is all there is to it. Do I think Zapper would beat Invasor--HECK YES. But if you are only comparing on the track, then Invasor has done more.

Yeah, earnings and win %. Those are the only factors that determine who's accomplished more. You gotta be kidding.

Did Invasor ever win a G1 sprint against elders closing from 12 lengths back? Did he win the most prestigious mile race in the country on a blistering pace? Did he wire an insanely fast Classic field?

You're being very narrow in your scope on accomplishments. In terms of graded races won, yes, Invasor has accomplished as much as Ghostzapper. But that's not all that goes into "accomplishments on the track." Ghostzapper won G1 races from 6 1/2 furlongs to 10 furlongs, both closing from the clouds and wire-to-wire. He beat a better Classic field than Invasor did and in general, faced much faster horses.

And Saint Liam, as much as I wasn't a fan, won pretty much every important dirt race in America, and ran narrow seconds in many others. To say Invasor has accomplished "far more" than either Ghostzapper or Saint Liam is nuts.

alysheba4

11-09-2006, 04:52 PM

all i needed from that pack mule scat diddy was 3rd.......for a nice tri.:mad:

eurobounce

11-09-2006, 08:13 PM

Yeah, earnings and win %. Those are the only factors that determine who's accomplished more. You gotta be kidding.

Did Invasor ever win a G1 sprint against elders closing from 12 lengths back? Did he win the most prestigious mile race in the country on a blistering pace? Did he wire an insanely fast Classic field?

You're being very narrow in your scope on accomplishments. In terms of graded races won, yes, Invasor has accomplished as much as Ghostzapper. But that's not all that goes into "accomplishments on the track." Ghostzapper won G1 races from 6 1/2 furlongs to 10 furlongs, both closing from the clouds and wire-to-wire. He beat a better Classic field than Invasor did and in general, faced much faster horses.

And Saint Liam, as much as I wasn't a fan, won pretty much every important dirt race in America, and ran narrow seconds in many others. To say Invasor has accomplished "far more" than either Ghostzapper or Saint Liam is nuts.Who cares what distances the races were or how the won the races and again who cares about the competition. In this game, wins and money is all that matter. Invasor has a better win % and more money. That is all he needs.