Pletcher and his TC Comments

[eurobounce]

I disagree with him 100%. I don't think we an incentive in the TC series. I think the TC is way way overrated. The TC races are not that important anymore.

[Exceller]

I disagree with him 100%. I don't think we an incentive in the TC series. I think the TC is way way overrated. The TC races are not that important anymore.

I couldn't agree with him more. TC races run the business. From breeding to television everything revolves around the 3 races. Without them ESPN and others wouldn't even carry horse racing. When you get involved with a horse the TC is the first thing you dream of.

[Secretariat]

the triple crwon is unique in all the world,it is horse racing,
and should never be changed, with one exception,

at some point it will move to synthetic turf (polly)

[Exceller]

the triple crwon is unique in all the world,it is horse racing,
and should never be changed, with one exception,

at some point it will move to synthetic turf (polly)

Belmont will never change the surface.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I agree with what Todd Pletcher said, and I definitely don't want to see the TC races run on polytrack. There are better solutions to the breakdown/safety problem than polytrack.

[GenuineRisk]

I seem to recall way back when that $5 million dollar bonus thing started (and I think it might have been when... Chrysler? Did they sponsor it before Visa? I was a teenager, anyway) that the sponsor offered a one million dollar bonus to whichever horse did the best in all three Triple Crown races- so that even if there was no TC winner, there was still a champ of the TC races, so to speak. They may have only done it for a year or so, but I remember as a very casual fan being interested in the horses competing for that award.

Does anyone else remember this?

[Thoroughbred Fan]

They should keep track of points based on finish in the three races and give a bonus to the top three point earners in the series. How about $500k, $200k, $100k.

[eurobounce]

They should keep track of points based on finish in the three races and give a bonus to the top three point earners in the series. How about $500k, $200k, $100k.


I dont think they should offer anything. I think they should raise the purse of each race to $3mm. That is a way to get horses entered. There are too many races out there to earn money. You have the Haskell, Travers, etc etc and then the BCC. The TC series has been diluted just a little. Rememeber when tracks would offer a bonus for a horse who won their prep and the Derby? Well that worked out perfectly until it happened TWICE and now no one offers that bonus. The dream of an owner is to win the KY Derby and that is it. If you dont win the Derby then you want a BC win. No one buys a horse thinking--wow, I have a Preakness winner here. If I won the Derby there is no way on earth I would run that horse back in the Preakness. My main goal would be the Derby, Travers and then the BCC.

[pgardn]

The general public does not care about the BC. The triple crown was my avenue into this wonderful sport. If the TC races are not drawing in new fans then there is a problem.

Seriously. Many of us (people in the US anyway) were drawn into the sport by some TC race and a horse. I realize there is a sizable fanbase that might be classified as addicted gamblers. I wonder how they found their way to the track though? Probably an addicted Uncle raving about the exploits of some superstar TC horse.

This unorganized industry does absolutely terrible PR work. If NASCAR can do it through entities working together, horseracing clearly has the capability of getting it done. Or remain what it is. Which is a sport that COULD be a whole lot better.

[eurobounce]

The general public does not care about the BC. The triple crown was my avenue into this wonderful sport. If the TC races are not drawing in new fans then there is a problem.

Seriously. Many of us (people in the US anyway) were drawn into the sport by some TC race and a horse. I realize there is a sizable fanbase that might be classified as addicted gamblers. I wonder how they found their way to the track though? Probably an addicted Uncle raving about the exploits of some superstar TC horse.

This unorganized industry does absolutely terrible PR work. If NASCAR can do it through entities working together, horseracing clearly has the capability of getting it done. Or remain what it is. Which is a sport that COULD be a whole lot better.

I agree about the industry being unorganized. It is sad that the PR of racing lasts from April to mid June, and it is focused on 3 races. I think the TC series gives a person a unrealistic glimpse into what horse racing really is. It does not introduce them to turf racing, spring racing and it doesnt introduce them to the female aspect of racing. Maybe this is the problem. Maybe horse racing is using the TC as a way to promote their sport. In reality, the TC gives you the exact opppsite.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

As far as the general public not knowing about the BC, it really is a shame. As a big fan of this game, I must say that BC day is my FAVORITE horse racing day of the year! The cards are always phenomenal, and we have some of the best horses from around the world going head to head. The industry definitely needs to market this day of racing better, although they did give it a good try last year with the movie Dreamer.

[Exceller]

Horse Racing will never be big again. People rather watch Celebrity Poker than horse racing. The sport ruined itself though with drugs and constant racing on a million tracks. Go to a track and sit outside and only bet that track and you will be bored out of your mind.

[pgardn]

I agree about the industry being unorganized. It is sad that the PR of racing lasts from April to mid June, and it is focused on 3 races. I think the TC series gives a person a unrealistic glimpse into what horse racing really is. It does not introduce them to turf racing, spring racing and it doesnt introduce them to the female aspect of racing. Maybe this is the problem. Maybe horse racing is using the TC as a way to promote their sport. In reality, the TC gives you the exact opppsite.


A possibility. But for me, it was Secretariat and the Triple Crown. I watched those races and was forever stuck. Most of the people I know look at me like a foreign object. They all know Barbaro, they all knew Smarty Jones and some remember Afleet Alex. But not one of them heard of Ghostzapper. I must give some recongition to the BC races for trying to introduce racing to the general public. But so far it is not working. The tradition remains strong. The Kentucky Derby is the most popular race in the US.
I will not be stuck with the fatal notion that horseracing in the US will never go anywhere. It WAS more popular than it is now. And again, if the X-games and NASCAR can get it done...

[miraja2]

"Go to a track and sit outside and only bet that track and you will be bored out of your mind."

I totally disagree with that statement. For me personally, that is a great day! I love sitting outside at a track (used to be the NY tracks, but now that I've moved its the Chicago tracks) and cap the races one at a time. I ALWAYS only play that track and I have a ton of fun. There is nothing quite like a weekend afternoon of beer, brats, and horse racing with friends and/or family.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Horse Racing will never be big again. People rather watch Celebrity Poker than horse racing. The sport ruined itself though with drugs and constant racing on a million tracks. Go to a track and sit outside and only bet that track and you will be bored out of your mind.

I'm never bored at a track. Once one race is run, I'm studying the PPs for the next one :D

[Exceller]

I'm never bored at a track. Once one race is run, I'm studying the PPs for the next one :D

Most people do that way in advance, not between races. Anyway, they already have you, they need new people and the other sports are getting them.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Most people do that way in advance, not between races. Anyway, they already have you, they need new people and the other sports are getting them.

I do study them in advance, but then I go over them again and again when I am actually at the OTB or track. Like tonight, I'll be going over and over Belmont card PPs until I get a headache, and then tomorrow I'll chat with some folks at the OTB and study some more in between the races about the next race coming up. Besides, it is wise never to make your final bets until you have watched how they look while being saddled and in the post parade.

And you're right, they have me for life. :D

[Dunbar]

I seem to recall way back when that $5 million dollar bonus thing started (and I think it might have been when... Chrysler? Did they sponsor it before Visa? I was a teenager, anyway) that the sponsor offered a one million dollar bonus to whichever horse did the best in all three Triple Crown races- so that even if there was no TC winner, there was still a champ of the TC races, so to speak. They may have only done it for a year or so, but I remember as a very casual fan being interested in the horses competing for that award.

Does anyone else remember this?

Yep, I'd forgotten about that, GenuineRisk, but I think you're right. I'm not sure it was $1 million, but it could have been.

In a similar vein, I liked the handicap point series they tried for a year or two. Horses earned points in various Grade I races, and the leaders at the end of the year picked up an extra several hundred thou. Unfortunately, the main year they tried it, the horses were not particularly inspiring. Festin and some others. They quickly dropped the idea.

--Dunbar

[Gander]

How many triple crown races has Todd Pletcher won?

[whorstman]

I seem to recall way back when that $5 million dollar bonus thing started (and I think it might have been when... Chrysler? Did they sponsor it before Visa? I was a teenager, anyway) that the sponsor offered a one million dollar bonus to whichever horse did the best in all three Triple Crown races- so that even if there was no TC winner, there was still a champ of the TC races, so to speak. They may have only done it for a year or so, but I remember as a very casual fan being interested in the horses competing for that award.

Does anyone else remember this?
Yeah, I think they had a points sytem for that, Can't remeber the year, but I beleive on of those that won the 1st 2 leggs still lost because the winner of the belmont ran well in the 1st 2 and the horse that actually won the 1st two didn't finish well in the belmont and got no points? I dunno

[oracle80]

How many triple crown races has Todd Pletcher won?
LOL!! Same number as Allen Jerkens, Richard mandella, etc.
But if you wanna take any bets about how many he ends up winning in his life, I'd say the over under will be 15. Hes 38 years old. Most guys dont win one until at least their 40's. Frankel won his only TC race in his 60's, Whittingham in his 70's, Woody Stephens in his 50's, Lukas in his 50's. Baffert and Zito in their 40's.

[Scav]

How many triple crown races has Todd Pletcher won?

He is currently 0 for 49

[oracle80]

He is currently 0 for 49
And which one of those horses was favored or was expected to win one of those races? Zero. Tomorrow will mark the first time he sends one(actuallly two) with a legitimate chance to win one.

[Gander]

So he sent out 49 mules? Thats hard to believe. What difference does it make if they were favored or not?

[oracle80]

So he sent out 49 mules? Thats hard to believe. What difference does it make if they were favored or not?
Well I guess it doesnt. But its not like he failed to get one who really had a shot to win.
I know Tim, Allen Jerkens and Mandella are also complete failures whose remarks should be scoffed at, they like Pletcher are bums for never winning a Tri Crown race. Isn't that kind of silly?

[Exceller]

Could be a moot point after tomorrow. I say he wins 10 before it is done.

[oracle80]

Could be a moot point after tomorrow. I say he wins 10 before it is done.
I say 15. Hes only 38. I'd say one every other year for 30 years is completely attainable by him. Lukas won his first in his 50's.

[Exceller]

I say 15. Hes only 38. I'd say one every other year for 30 years is completely attainable by him. Lukas won his first in his 50's.

1 every other year? What is he Tiger Woods. He will be competing with his younger talent for years so i am going to say 8-10.

[Gander]

Of course the guy wins 15, probably more. Hes only 38 and hes already had 49 chances, of which none have gotten it done. By the time he hits 50 he will probably have sent out over 100 horses. By the time hes 60, maybe 200 horses. Strength in numbers.

I dont recall saying he was a failure. Show me where I said that?

[oracle80]

1 every other year? What is he Tiger Woods. He will be competing with his younger talent for years so i am going to say 8-10.


Great point!!! I forgot about that!! Seth will go on his own some day and win serious races. Geez, you ever meet Seth Exceller? I'm not kidding, he looks like an 18 year old. I think hes only 30 or 31. Imagine being 31 and having been Pletchers head assistant already for over two years? Geez, think hes got a head start in the game?

[Exceller]

Great point!!! I forgot about that!! Seth will go on his own some day and win serious races. Geez, you ever meet Seth Exceller? I'm not kidding, he looks like an 18 year old. I think hes only 30 or 31. Imagine being 31 and having been Pletchers head assistant already for over two years? Geez, think hes got a head start in the game?

Don't know who he is but people skills are a huge thing in getting new owners. Pletcher and his mentor Lukas have great people skills. Pletcher also has his dad so he has a little leg up on everyone. I think George Weaver might have worked for Pletcher too. Maybe, and he seems pretty young.

[oracle80]

Of course the guy wins 15, probably more. Hes only 38 and hes already had 49 chances, of which none have gotten it done. By the time he hits 50 he will probably have sent out over 100 horses. By the time hes 60, maybe 200 horses. Strength in numbers.

I dont recall saying he was a failure. Show me where I said that?
Well you asked the rhetorical question Tim to which I know you knew the answer. So I gave you a rhetorical answer.
Todd made an intelligent statement. He said the only horse with an incentive to run in the Preakness was the Derby winner. Noone else wants to beat the **** out of their horse with 3 races in 3 states in 5 weeks. Thats not valid? especially since he just didn't speak out, he was asked specifically by someone what he felt about the fact that not one horse this year will compete in all three legs. I dunno where others find fault in that but i sure don't see any. The fact that he hasnt won a tri crown race yet doesnt make him less of a credible person to answer that question. He gave an honest candid answer. Hell the Sheikh is just outright skipping the Belmont with a horsew ho would have been 1-2 and I don't see anybody bashing him. Quite frankly, he did the right thing. Why beat the hell out of a horse back on three weeks rest with all the races left this year to run in?
Fact is that the "traditionalists" don't own or train horses. real easy to tell someone else what to do with their property. fact is that people no longer believe that running in 3 races that quick is good for a horse. Lets take teh Sheikh, heck he doesnt need money, he doesnt need stud money either!!!! yet he made a choice not to run in the Belmont. Now what does that tell you? It tells me that a guy with no financial pressure at all decided to do what he felt was best for his horse. Obviously others agree with him.

[oracle80]

Don't know who he is but people skills are a huge thing in getting new owners. Pletcher and his mentor Lukas have great people skills. Pletcher also has his dad so he has a little leg up on everyone. I think George Weaver might have worked for Pletcher too. Maybe, and he seems pretty young.
Seth took over for Weaver as asst when Weaver left. Seth is one hell of a nice guy, he will do just fine when he ever goes on his own. But i can't see him leaving for a long time. Hes so young and seems to be sucking in all that he can learn from Todd and being around such nice horses. Trust me, some day Seth is gonna be to Todd what Todd is to Wayne.

[eurobounce]

No way does Pletcher win more than 10TC races. It is so hard to win one. I know Pletcher is only 38, but he will not continue to get the stock that he gets. He will get more and more competition from younger trainers as the years go bye. Plus he still will compete with Baffert, Zito, Romans and Asmussen.

[alysheba4]

damn, gander always gets shot dowm from oracle:rolleyes:

[oracle80]

damn, gander always gets shot dowm from oracle:rolleyes:
NO NO that wasnt my point to shoot down Timmy. My point is that the guy was asked a question, he didnt get on a soapbox and start preaching. Gander would be right if Todd had just decided to start preaching. But he didn't. The guy was asked a question, and gave a good answer. I don't know why everyone can't see that, not just Tim.

[Gander]

Oracle is a bully. We all know that. If you cant see it then go see your eye doctor or call 1-800-Contact.

[eurobounce]

I think Todd gives the best interview as anyone when it comes to horse racing. He is intelligent and answers the question without bashing anyone or touting his own talent. Todd is a good man and a good trainer. I just disagree with him when it comes to an incentive to race in the TC.

[oracle80]

I think Todd gives the best interview as anyone when it comes to horse racing. He is intelligent and answers the question without bashing anyone or touting his own talent. Todd is a good man and a good trainer. I just disagree with him when it comes to an incentive to race in the TC.
Euro thats fine, and phrased like that i respect the comment. I actually don't really disagree. I just think that Tood gave an honest opinion when asked a question and doesnt deserve grief for it.
Noone does the sport prouder than Todd. Hes always meticulous in his appearance and his speech. If we had more guys like Todd in the game we would all be better off. I think hes getting a bum rap. If that makes me a bully then so be it.

[eurobounce]

Euro thats fine, and phrased like that i respect the comment. I actually don't really disagree. I just think that Tood gave an honest opinion when asked a question and doesnt deserve grief for it.
Noone does the sport prouder than Todd. Hes always meticulous in his appearance and his speech. If we had more guys like Todd in the game we would all be better off. I think hes getting a bum rap. If that makes me a bully then so be it.

I dont think Todd should get any grief about what he said. His answer was well thought out and makes sense. And you are right, Todd always looks good and acts in a very dignified way.

Oracle--do you think there should be an incentive? If so--what would it be?

[oracle80]

I dont think Todd should get any grief about what he said. His answer was well thought out and makes sense. And you are right, Todd always looks good and acts in a very dignified way.

Oracle--do you think there should be an incentive? If so--what would it be?
I agree with you, no incentive. But I don't really think thats what Todd was getting at. reread his comments again, read between the lines, hes eluding to the spacing of the races and not coming out and saying it. Noone wants to be known as the guy who is knocking tradition. But I think thats what he was eluding to.

[eurobounce]

I agree with you, no incentive. But I don't really think thats what Todd was getting at. reread his comments again, read between the lines, hes eluding to the spacing of the races and not coming out and saying it. Noone wants to be known as the guy who is knocking tradition. But I think thats what he was eluding to.


I read it two ways - the first was the spacing and the second was if you keep the spacing as it is, then offer some sort of incentive to run my horse back in two weeks and then 3 weeks.

[oracle80]

I read it two ways - the first was the spacing and the second was if you keep the spacing as it is, then offer some sort of incentive to run my horse back in two weeks and then 3 weeks.
Well I mean hes right. Noone is ever gonna tell you that they like taht spacing. If you maybe offered a bonus to a horse who runs in all three as long as he WINS at leats one leg, maybe you geta few extra horses in the Preakness.

[Secretariat]

LOL!! Same number as Allen Jerkens, Richard mandella, etc.
But if you wanna take any bets about how many he ends up winning in his life, I'd say the over under will be 15. Hes 38 years old. Most guys dont win one until at least their 40's. Frankel won his only TC race in his 60's, Whittingham in his 70's, Woody Stephens in his 50's, Lukas in his 50's. Baffert and Zito in their 40's.


the guy is 38 and his hair is totally gray, does he dye his hair, is he that vain, why would he want to look like he is 55.

[Gander]

LOL! That was funny Sec. Maybe its the grind every day. Tough business to be in.

[eurobounce]

Well I mean hes right. Noone is ever gonna tell you that they like taht spacing. If you maybe offered a bonus to a horse who runs in all three as long as he WINS at leats one leg, maybe you geta few extra horses in the Preakness.

I am not a huge fan of the spacing and I am not a hug fan of tradition. I think tradition gets in the way of progress (at times). But they need to do something to encourage not only larger fields but more talented fields for the Belmont and Preakness. I think the simple answer is to raise the purse to $3mm and to make it 3 weeks before the Preakness and 4 weeks before the Belmont. That is 3 races in 7 weeks which is doable. Plus add in the extra 3 weeks of rest before the Derby and you are looking at well rested and more mature horses.

[Gander]

0 for 49, huh. With an average like that he couldnt play for the KC Royals minor league team.

[pgardn]

Pletcher is incredibly sharp and is clearly a superior manager of details. The guy is a superstar trainer like it or not and despite his Derby record. As long as his barn does become unmanageable. I think there is a limit to the quality you can give individual horses thru assistants.

Assmussen is seemingly at every stakes race in every state.

[alysheba4]

Oracle is a bully. We all know that. If you cant see it then go see your eye doctor or call 1-800-Contact.
speaking of eye doctors, i should wear my glasses while wagering...... nothing worse than confusing the 7 with the 1 or the 3 with the 9. you have a tri 6/4/7 that you think hit......when you see the replay its 6/4/1 fuuuuckkk

[Downthestretch55]

Pletcher is incredibly sharp and is clearly a superior manager of details. The guy is a superstar trainer like it or not and despite his Derby record. As long as his barn does become unmanageable. I think there is a limit to the quality you can give individual horses thru assistants.

Assmussen is seemingly at every stakes race in every state.

Pat,
You hit the nail on the head.
If you go to Toga, you'll see that both Todd P and Keirahn M have 72. Both sides. Both of them have very deep stables.
Shug has 38, Linda Rice has 38, Jim Jerkens has 38. Same with Frank LaBocceta.
The stall space is very expensive, and if they don't produce...down the road they go.
Those big guys win their share, no question. But they have deeper resources available. More horses to sort through.
I like the trainers that connect with those that they've more carefully culled.
Just my opinion. More "hands on". Better attention.
You can always "dish the details" to your assistants.

As Kentness would say, "you don't know the pressure I'm under."

Sometimes, it does become unmanageable.
Just my two cents...
DTS