Discreet Cat earns 115 Beyer Speed Figure

[Cunningham Racing]

..for that public workout in the Jerome....ouch....

He and Bernardini seem to be on a different planet from a talent standpoint...period..

Its a shame if they skip the BC...what a race it would be between he and his stablemate, whom both may be 2 of the best horses we've seen in a while...

Fitting time for Invasor to get sick...not sure if it was a fever or McLaughlin reading Bernardini's PPs on why he isn't running in the JCGC Saturday....Either way, now Bernardini has an even easier prep only having to drill Dylan Thomas before the BC Classic....Frankly, Discreet Cat is the only intriguing horse out there that actually has the god-given ability to beat Bernardini in the Classic IMO, so we as racing fans need to hope that they choose to run Discreet Cat in the BC too...what a showdown it would be....:)

[blackthroatedwind]

I just hope Godolphin pays you....... something.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

There is only one reason why I would for Discreet Cat to run in Louisville on November 4th, and that is that I could see possibly the greatest race between two potential superhorses of all time live and in person.

I really think that they should put him in the Cigar Mile though as I have already stated like 10 times.

[Coach Pants]

I literally jumped out of my burka when I saw his beyer.

ALLAH AKBAR!!!

And of course Invasor is not sick! You'd play sick too if you had to face the exceptional horses from the savior of Islam.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Man, I just butchered that post with incoherent thoughts and speech...It's getting late and I've still got 1 more paper to go...

[Cunningham Racing]

I just hope Godolphin pays you something.

I wish I was...I read your post about Discreet Cat...funny, but you clearly aren't fans of theirs or any of the 'big boys' of racing, which is fine....I'm usually an underdog type of guy, but in this case the two horses that I think are the best horses in the world (and I have thought this for some time now..not just jumping on this bandwagon as of last month - but most know this) are these two colts - both owned by the Sheik..

Its funny that because I predicted this assault on America in May in a story I wrote that it makes everybody believe that I have to be such a supporter of them....I also picked the Yankees to win the World Series and I HATE those mother freakers...

People always have something to say...its natural to knock in this game...A wise old Fair Grounds-based trainer once told me that, "You can't be involved in this game unless you were born with a great ability to knock other people"

...you know, he's proving himself right on that statement everyday I live and work in this industry...and no, I'm no different..I just think the level of negativity is hilarious at times :D

[blackthroatedwind]

By the way, Joel, when I mentioned a horse's Beyer figures recently in the course of a discussion you responded in a semi-horrified manner that you couldn't believe someone as supposedly knowledgable as myself would pay any mind to the Beyer figures.....but somehow now that one legitimizes a Godolphin horse they are meaningful to you.

So, Joel, which is it?

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm also a little curious as to how you already know his Beyer number.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I wish I was...I read your post about Discreet Cat...funny, but you clearly aren't fans of theirs or any of the 'big boys' of racing, which is fine....I'm usually an underdog type of guy, but in this case the two horses that I think are the best horses in the world (and I have thought this for some time now..not just jumping on this bandwagon as of last month - but most know this) are these two colts - both owned by the Sheik..

Its funny that because I predicted this assault on America in May in a story I wrote that it makes everybody believe that I have to be such a supporter of them....I also picked the Yankees to win the World Series and I HATE those mother freakers...

People always have something to say...its natural to knock in this game...A wise old Fair Grounds-based trainer once told me that, "You can't be involved in this game unless you were born with a great ability to knock other people"

...you know, he's proving himself right on that statement everyday I live and work in this industry...and no, I'm no different..I just think the level of negativity is hilarious at times :D

Hey, do you remember our bet...DC vs. Corinthian. Can we pretend that I never said that Corinthian could actually beat DC?:D Besides, you know the REAL reason why I made that bet....

Oh yeah, and mother freaker is a cute word Joel;)

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I'm also a little curious as to how you already know his Beyer number.

Shhh...It's a conspiracy...

Nah, I'm just playing with you BTW. Cajun, and some of the others aren't on the board to joke around with me tonight, and I'm in the mood. You'll have to excuse me tonight;)

Now, you boys can have ya'lls DC thread back. I'm done for a little while.

[Cunningham Racing]

:cool: Hey, do you remember our bet...DC vs. Corinthian. Can we pretend that I never said that Corinthian could actually beat DC?:D Besides, you know the REAL reason why I made that bet....

Oh yeah, and mother freaker is a cute word Joel;)

Yep, and you wouldn't have been in the capacity to hold up on your part of the wager either had they faced off ;)

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

:cool:

Yep, and you wouldn't have been in the capacity to hold up on your part of the wager either had they faced off ;)

Nope, not at that time, but I will in four weeks if you were talking about location...

If it was the other kind of capacity, I'm young and will do as I please... I have my whole life ahead of me...

Besides, I need to have a little fun with the year that I have had...:p

[Round Pen]

I'm also a little curious as to how you already know his Beyer number.

If your still wondering that BTW it is posted on the DRF's web site Just click on the tap Leaderboard then click again at the top "Best Beyer"



RP

[Swap Fliparoo]

If your still wondering that BTW it is posted on the DRF's web site Just click on the tap Leaderboard then click again at the top "Best Beyer"



RP
Pretty sure BTW is practically the one posting them there. (*cough*)

I think he meant that CR had it before it was up there on public display somehow...

[Bogey]

Joel,

That was a disgusting display of talent. I hope they decide to run him in the BC Mile. I just think it would be great for racing to see him square off with Gorgeous George.

BTW, I know you have been with these two since the start of their careers.

[eurobounce]

From what I hear, Goldolphine is going to skip the BC with Discreet Cat. I hear it is about an 85% chance the horse is going to go in the Cigar Mile. They will keep him around until the Dubai World Cup and then we prob won't ever see him again.

[Gander]

Godolphin may have Discreet Cat but us NY'ers have Funny Cide and Dave :p

[Cajungator26]

Nope, not at that time, but I will in four weeks if you were talking about location...

If it was the other kind of capacity, I'm young and will do as I please... I have my whole life ahead of me...

Besides, I need to have a little fun with the year that I have had...:p

Isn't there an engagement ring on your finger? :p

[jpops757]

There is another "Cat" out there that could be a threat to either or both at any distance. If he ever returns remember Surf Cat.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Isn't there an engagement ring on your finger? :p

There's my girl. Yep there's an engagement ring, but that doesn't mean that I can't go out to eat, chat, and have a good time:p :D

Besides, I'm not married yet, and won't be for a long while even if I do stay with this guy. I'm not rushing into that...

[Cajungator26]

There's my girl. Yep there's an engagement ring, but that doesn't mean that I can't go out to eat, chat, and have a good time:p :D

Besides, I'm not married yet, and won't be for a long while even if I do stay with this guy. I'm not rushing into that...

Can't blame you there. Been there and done that. Stay away from cheaters... they're no fun. :eek:

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Can't blame you there. Been there and done that. Stay away from cheaters... they're no fun. :eek:

Are you going to the BC Cajun? I'll behave while I'm there...maybe. I know that I'll be drunk off my a s s most of the time, eating at all the nice restaurants, and, of course, playing the ponies while I'm there. It's going to be a good time.:D It is a much needed vacation.

[BellamyRd.]

the Beyer seems a little inflated to me
they are two very good 3 y/o's
it would be sporting of the Shaw to enter both in BCC
I'd like to see a Volponi type win
damn did PG pass? I must have missed that

[Cajungator26]

Are you going to the BC Cajun? I'll behave while I'm there...maybe. I know that I'll be drunk off my a s s most of the time, eating at all the nice restaurants, and, of course, playing the ponies while I'm there. It's going to be a good time.:D It is a much needed vacation.

Nope, unfortunately, I won't be going. I'll be busy in November... lots of Nascar races that I'll probably be going to. :D

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Nope, unfortunately, I won't be going. I'll be busy in November... lots of Nascar races that I'll probably be going to. :D

I got lucky in that my schedule let up. I didn't think I was going to be able to go until last week... I figured I that I would go to the BC instead of to the Derby, although I may get to go to the Derby next year as well before I take off to a four year university...

[Cajungator26]

I got lucky in that my schedule let up. I didn't think I was going to be able to go until last week... I figured I that I would go to the BC instead of to the Derby, although I may get to go to the Derby next year as well before I take off to a four year university...

Where are you going to go to school?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Where are you going to go to school?

I don't know yet. I just know that I'm getting the h e l l out of NC. It's not that I'm running away from the place, but I'm running to something...

You know, my doctors in Danville misdiagnosed me with rheumatoid arthritis. I went to Duke and all my tests were negative and normal. The doctor at Duke literally diagnosed me with stress from not being able to ride my horses due to college. That's crazy, but he's the expert. Well, maybe that's what I am trying to run to...wherever the horses are is where I will most likely end up.

[Cajungator26]

I don't know yet. I just know that I'm getting the h e l l out of NC. It's not that I'm running away from the place, but I'm running to something...

You know, my doctors in Danville misdiagnosed me with rheumatoid arthritis. I went to Duke and all my tests were negative and normal. The doctor at Duke literally diagnosed me with stress from not being able to ride my horses due to college. That's crazy, but he's the expert. Well, maybe that's what I am trying to run to...wherever the horses are is where I will most likely end up.

Hate to break it to you, but NC isn't a bad state compared to most. Florida is rough...

You think it will be better, but when you get to a place where you have very few friends and family, you'll miss what you were running from to begin with.

[GenuineRisk]

Hate to break it to you, but NC isn't a bad state compared to most. Florida is rough...

You think it will be better, but when you get to a place where you have very few friends and family, you'll miss what you were running from to begin with.

I don't know... less than a month after I got to NYC for college (knowing absolutely no one) my aunt wrote me a sweet letter that ended with, "You sound like you're finally where you belong." And lo these many years later, she was right. She usually is.

Don't get me wrong, I looooove my family. But I love them even more from a distance. :)

Kentucky, if you're supposed to be someplace else, you'll know it when you get out. And if you're not, you'll figure that out, too. I guess it's just different for each person. Cajun, are you still pretty close to where you grew up?

And so I'm not totally off thread-- I'd be happy to see DC in the Cigar Mile... give me another excuse (reason) to go to Aqueduct in the winter. :)

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Nah, NC isn't a bad state, but I like traveling and experiencing new things. I'm a very restless person. My little sister is just like me, and she just took off for the Navy. She is in boot camp right now. We both want to see the world.

I won't miss not having a racetrack in NC, or the fact that I live an hour away from the closest stable. However, I know that I will get lonely sometimes and will miss my family. Luckily, I can always come back.

I've only lived in NC for about three years, and most of my family and friends live over an hour away from me. Besides my mom, I don't get to see them very much because of my hectic schedule. I don't miss where I used to live in VA one bit.

I'm going to follow my dreams, and they aren't going to happen here in NC. Like I said, I'm not running away from NC, but am following my heart. Right now, I feel like I am boxed in because I'm tied down at this community college and I have to graduate in May so that I can go to a four year school. I want to go find my dream job in the racing business, and I'll do what it takes to achieve my goals.

[Cunningham Racing]

Joel,

That was a disgusting display of talent. I hope they decide to run him in the BC Mile. I just think it would be great for racing to see him square off with Gorgeous George.

BTW, I know you have been with these two since the start of their careers.

I do not see him accelerating on the grass like he does on the dirt. Interesting enough,l he does miove like a turf horse with his high knee action and sort of "bicycle style" bio mechanics, but his pedigree is strictly for dirt IMO...Now, can he be a graded stakes winner on the turf?..Sure, he's talented to do probably about anything - But, can he beat a specialist like George Washington in his first start over the surface next month at Churchill Downs?...I seriously doubt it.....a little too much to ask...George Washington has some serious turf class...Fallon and Kinane have both said that he is one of the best horses they've ever gotten on - which says alot coming out of that camp...

I agree it would be fun to see him somewhere on BC day, but the Classic would fit him best IMO...If they turned him back to six furlongs after going a mile, I'm not sure I'd like him as much as progressing in distance...Don't get me wrong, he could win the Sprint because of his natural high cruising speed, but i think it would be a much harder race for him because any misfortune is hard to overcome in that race because it is a full field of horses blitzing the entire way...the Mile will be the same way...horses that win those two races are ones who can overcome some sort of obstacles and since Discreet Cat hasn't been tested yet this year I would question how he'd handle having to go too wwde, race too fast early, or get stopped and wait for a hole to open, etc. in a race of that caliber...it usually requires some luck and a battle-tested horse on top of being good to win those two races....positioning in the 1 1/4-mile Classic is so much easier, as is the pace scenario and room for error....

I think if they run him in the BC Classic that he will be no worse than second behind his stablemate...i really think so.....his dam won the 1 1/4-mile Alabama at Saratoga when she was 3 and she is by stamina influence Private Account - so I think the classic disatnce won't be an issue...he has already embarrassed horses like Simpatico Bribon, Invasor, etc.going 1 1/8 miles in the UAE Derby....

My best guess is that they do run him in the Cigar Mile at AQU and go back to Dubai and run him in the WOrld Cup against Bernardini in a World Cup that would actually be worth watching for once in the last few years IMO..There was originally talk of hin shipping to Churchill DOwns to train ad actually pre-entering in the Classic ONLY as a back up if something were to happen to Bernardini to cause him to defect at the last minute....Also, Discreet Cat would run in the 1 1/8-mile Clark (G1) at Churchill Downs later in October since he would be on the grounds as a BC Classic back-up....

But i guess the Cigar Mile looks like the likely spot now...I think by hearing their logic that they belive that he is at his best a Miler, which they may be right about that....

Whatever the hell he is, he is a freak and i'm just glad horse racing enthusiests like ourselves have a chance to see horses of this magnitude run....you know, say what you will about the Shieks, but the bottomline is that they have the money and love for racing to keep horses like Bernardini and DC in training for a while because they could care less about getting that Huge stallion deal....money is no object, that is why in a way this is a good thing that they own the best horses in the world...it gives our sport a better chance to create stars and an identity in the mainstream IMO....

I'll say this, i is VERY clear to me that DC has and willhave some serious health issues at some point probably in the near future....he is NOT a pretty mover at all....so if you enjoy watching him run, be glad the Sheiks have him because they wil get him right and keep running him as long as it is nothing really bad and controllable with time.....Think about if some ownership like Cash is King owned the horse and he had the LEAST little thing go wrong with him....he would be retired and sold to a stud farm in a heart beat....thyat is a fact..

Another interesting theory to chew on is this:

I would bet that DC is worse off health wise right now than Afleet Alex ever was when they retired him.....not knocking those guys..just an example I chose to use....the Sheiks have the non-money-driven interest in our sport that will keep DC in the game well beyond any other owner would...that you can be sure of...

[Coach Pants]

Another interesting theory to chew on is this:

I would bet that DC is worse off health wise right now than Afleet Alex ever was when they retired him.....not knocking those guys..just an example I chose to use....the Sheiks have the non-money-driven interest in our sport that will keep DC in the game well beyond any other owner would...that you can be sure of...
They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

[blackthroatedwind]

They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

Don't be so picky.

And Joel, please, stop reiterating that Pretty Discreet won the Alabama as though that gives Discreet Cat distance breeding. Do you remember that Alabama?

[Cunningham Racing]

They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

Nah, I don't think so...per proportion of how involved they are, they usually do VERY well by the horses they have in looking out for their helath and best interest...Electrocutionist had a heart attack and for anybody who understands horse health knows that it is totally genetic and a defection he was born with...that would have been uncontollable the greatest horseman in the world....Dubai Millanium and Tempera both died from non-racing related stuff....I can't think of any of their horses that have died on the track in recent memory...they do a great job doing whats in the horse's best helath interest these days and I really think that is a primary reason that they are enjoying the high level of success they are now....just my opinion..

A prime example is Discreet Cat.....if MOST American trainers had him (I won't mention names), DC would have been thrust into the Derby...Hell, the Shieks would have probably dne that too a few years ago...But now they are more disciplined because they have learned that if you do right by the horse that things will usually play out the best way for you in the long run....

You cannot acuse them of being bad horsemen...thats for sure...they have not always done the smartest things considering the capital they invest (Coolmore out-managed them for YAESR with less oney invested) but they are getting better and smarter now...

Part of the reason they also didn't have the level of success that other big owners had for a long time was because they didn't cheat....I commend their honesty and it is paying dividends now...

[Cunningham Racing]

Don't be so picky.

And Joel, please, stop reiterating that Pretty Discreet won the Alabama as though that gives Discreet Cat distance breeding. Do you remember that Alabama?

Bottomline:

He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters, and I coud care less how she did it, she is a PRIVATE ACCOUNT....there are very few more stamina-laden influences in our game.....I believe Discreet Cat is the best horse in the world around one turn and that Bernardini is the best horse in the world around two turns - thus I think the further they go the more advantage Bernardini has over DC (1 1/4 miles), but I rerally believe DC is classy enough to still be second in the BC Classic - even if it isn't his best distance....

[blackthroatedwind]

Part of the reason they also didn't have the level of success that other big owners had for a long time was because they didn't cheat....I commend their honesty and it is paying dividends now...

Not accusing them of anything but I have no idea how you can insist they are necessarily any more innocent than everyobody else ( other than your unnatural affection for them ).

When you figure out how Testimony finished six lengths behind Discreet Cat, and two lengths in front of Invasor, let me know.

[pgardn]

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I'll say this, i is VERY clear to me that DC has and willhave some serious health issues at some point probably in the near future....he is NOT a pretty mover at all....so if you enjoy watching him run, be glad the Sheiks have him because they wil get him right and keep running him as long as it is nothing really bad and controllable with time.....Think about if some ownership like Cash is King owned the horse and he had the LEAST little thing go wrong with him....he would be retired and sold to a stud farm in a heart beat....thyat is a fact..

I agree with you in that DC is not a pretty mover. As I have said in other posts, he runs like a sore, unsound horse, and he hits the ground really hard with his front end. He has a snappy action instead of a fluid action. That is why I don't think that he would ever be a good turf horse even with his high knee action. Now, I think Bernardini could run on the turf...

I don't know Joel about Afleet Alex. Afleet Alex's injury was pretty bad. I think that they had every intention of running him until he experienced that condylar fracture. I believe that the screw did him in. I think that they knew in the back of their minds that he was finished when he suffered that injury, and tried to bring him back to please the public. It was the best thing for Alex to retire him. I would have retired him too:). It came to my attention in hindsight that the horse was mismanaged a little bit, and probably had some minor issues going on that turned into a big issue.

I don't know about Cash is King's other horses...

[blackthroatedwind]

Bottomline:

He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters, and I coud care less how she did it, she is a PRIVATE ACCOUNT....there are very few more stamina-laden influences in our game.....I believe Discreet Cat is the best horse in the world around one turn and that Bernardini is the best horse in the world around two turns - thus I think the further they go the more advantage Bernardini has over DC (1 1/4 miles), but I rerally believe DC is classy enough to still be second in the BC Classic - even if it isn't his best distance....

Really...." He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters "...you must be once again referring to that heavy hitter Testimony who other than a couple inexplicable performances in, according to you, drug-free Dubai couldn't be competitive with 35 claimers in the US...or perhaps you haven't noticed his two recent performances....if you can even call them that. Give me a break. If you are going to in any way insist that the real Invasor showed up that day, and for that matter any of the other supposed good horses ( including the one who's trainer claims his horse was doped ), then I suggest you get medical attention.

I'm not saying he doesn't necessarily have some distance in his pedigree, but to say about Pretty Discreet's Alabama victory, which YOU have cited more than once to argue Discreet Cat's distance pedigree, " you could care less how she did it " is ridiculous and, frankly, beneath you. Or, I suppose, you think Conquistador Cielo's wire to wire romp in the mud in the Belmont Stakes solidified him as a true mile and a half horse.

Ya know, even Godolphin has expressed serious concerns about his distance limitations....and I KNOW you care what they think.

[oracle80]

The only thing that was good about that Alabama win was that it caused a monster carryover at the Spa. Other than that I'd have to say it may have been the worst edition in history.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

His power and physique. The way he takes charge of a race. The way that he annihilates his competition. His explosive turn of foot. His character on the track. The fact that he can rate or lead. The way that he moves, so fluid and even and powerful. Even his eye…. When I watch him, I know that I am seeing something special. It is the way that he wins, and the way that he looks while he is winning, not just his fast times or his margin of victory.

The mechanics of a champion racehorse are definitely there. At least, I see them, and so do many others.

[Cunningham Racing]

Not accusing them of anything but I have no idea how you can insist they are necessarily any more innocent than everyobody else ( other than your unnatural affection for them ).

When you figure out how Testimony finished six lengths behind Discreet Cat, and two lengths in front of Invasor, let me know.

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...

[blackthroatedwind]

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...

Don't f'n lecture me and talk down to me....especially with that kind of crap.

[oracle80]

If there is a horse alive who gets too much commentary and debate over, its Discreet Cat.
He beat a maiden field that looked great at the time, but the 2nd place horse Superfly is still eligible for entry level allowance conditions, the 3rd horse Ivanoksky just won the other day FINALLY for maiden 45 on the grass, and the 4th horse is still a maiden.
His race in Dubai to me is like a tossout, as are all dubai races. I find it sickening that Brass Hat's connections have to give back 1.2 mill, while horses like Alwutamakel, Testimony, etc all run huge races on that day every year. I'm not buying anything they try and sell each year on that day. Invasor simply didnt fire.

His comeback at the Spa, well he beat Accountforgold, who came back and got beat in the same allowance condition the other day by an ordinary horse.
The race on Sunday, well again it was great, but beating Valid Notebook won't get you a plaque on Union Avenue up here.

Until this horse actually runs against, and beats someone, hes just a freakish horse whos shown he can run awesome figs agaisnt noone. And I've seen a few of those over the years.

I think hes one of the fastest horses I've ever seen to be honest. But at some point it would be really nice if he actually faced someone worth facing, I mean its October of his 3 year old year and hes run 4 times.

[Coach Pants]

His power and physique. The way he takes charge of a race. The way that he annihilates his competition. His explosive turn of foot. His character on the track. The fact that he can rate or lead. The way that he moves, so fluid and even and powerful. Even his eye�. When I watch him, I know that I am seeing something special. It is the way that he wins, and the way that he looks while he is winning, not just his fast times or his margin of victory.

The mechanics of a champion racehorse are definitely there. At least, I see them, and so do many others.
Sounds like the perfect man. Oh wait you're talking about a horse. Uhh nvmd. :D

[oracle80]

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...


Joel, I really don't think anyone takes that day seriously anymore.
After Almutawakel won off like the "champion" he was(LOL!!) and couldnt hit the board in a money allowance race that fall at Belmont, well, all I can say is thats SOME form reversal.
And after The most disgraceful thing I've ever seen in the Brass Hat debacle, I'd have to say anyone who brings a truly good horse over there has to be kidding. I don't think its a very level playing field over there.

That being said, I have no gripes with calling Discreet cat potentially one of the fastest milers in decades, provided he actually beats someone besides Valid Notebook, Superfly, Testimony(LOL!!), and Accountforgold. Thats not exactly an allstar cast there.

[Cunningham Racing]

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it...

[Coach Pants]

Joel, I really don't think anyone takes that day seriously anymore.
After Almutawakel won off like the "champion" he was(LOL!!) and couldnt hit the board in a money allowance race that fall at Belmont, well, all I can say is thats SOME form reversal.
And after The most disgraceful thing I've ever seen in the Brass Hat debacle, I'd have to say anyone who brings a truly good horse over there has to be kidding. I don't think its a very level playing field over there.

That being said, I have no gripes with calling Discreet cat potentially one of the fastest milers in decades, provided he actually beats someone besides Valid Notebook, Superfly, Testimony(LOL!!), and Accountforgold. Thats not exactly an allstar cast there.
Yes what those pricks did to the Bradleys was reprehensible. I guess that's what happens when you deal with rich nomads.

[Cunningham Racing]

:Don't f'n lecture me and talk down to me....especially with that kind of crap.

What :eek:

here we go with people taking things persinally again....the funny thing is that i just noticed you telling m,e I needed 'medical attention' in a post earlier in the thread...

This is when i retire from a thread...when the ridiculousness begins...Thanks for the conversation guys....see you in another thread down the road....

This is very dispaoointing it always results to more than a debate :(

[Coach Pants]

:

What :eek:

here we go with people taking things persinally again....the funny thing is that i just noticed you telling m,e I needed 'medical attention' in a post earlier in the thread...

This is when i retire from a thread...when the ridiculousness begins...Thanks for the conversation guys....see you in another thread down the road....

This is very dispaoointing it always results to more than a debate :(That's unfortunate. I always long for the overly positive pro-sheikh posts.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Sounds like the perfect man. Oh wait you're talking about a horse. Uhh nvmd. :D

There is no such thing as a perfect man...:D

But there is such a thing as a perfect horse.

[blackthroatedwind]

:

What :eek:

here we go with people taking things persinally again....the funny thing is that i just noticed you telling m,e I needed 'medical attention' in a post earlier in the thread...

This is when i retire from a thread...when the ridiculousness begins...Thanks for the conversation guys....see you in another thread down the road....

This is very dispaoointing it always results to more than a debate :(

There's a BIG difference between telling someone you think they are crazy for having an opinion and giving them a HorseRacing 101 lecture which I would say is what you did.

Oh, golly gee, you mean horses chasing sometimes don't run their best efforts, and tire from chasing a leader they can't beat and lose to an inferior horse who simply sucked up? Gee willakers...I didn't know that. Thanks for f'n clueing me in.

Come on, Joel, you can do better than that.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Buffy isn't here so I feel obligated...

Now, be nice...:)

[oracle80]

Yes what those pricks did to the Bradleys was reprehensible. I guess that's what happens when you deal with rich nomads.
Its in the same league as what Illinois just did to Wolfson. I find it VERY HARD to believe that Wolfson's horse was the only horse who raced that day who had trace levels of antiimflammatories!!!!!!!! Its called keeping the money "in house". Especially since the guy had never had a single postive in his life.
Guy I know shipped a horse to a small track near here for a stakes race. Brought in a NYRA jock also. Funny thing happened at the gate, they tailed him and teh asst starter wasnt real good with him in the gate, geez who'd figure? He broke bad of course and lost all chance.

[Cunningham Racing]

Than don't ask me questions about how Testimony could beat a horse like Invasor if you don't want to hear the reason, got it?

You started this, Andy...everything was a fair debate until you started throwing your frequent jabs about how i kiss Godolphin's a ss and that I 'need medical attention'.... I guess I should have taken it that you were insulting my intelligence by asking me a question that would provide a handicapping 101 answer....

I expected more from a figure like you....:(

[oracle80]

Than don't ask me questions about how Testimony could beat a horse like Invasor if you don't want to hear the reason, got it?

You started this, Andy...everything was a fair debate until you started throwing your frequent jabs about how i kiss Godolphin's a ss and that I 'need medical attention'.... I guess I should have taken it that you were insulting my intelligence by asking me a question that would provide a handicapping 101 answer....

I expected more from a figure like you....:(

Joel,
Lemme put this another way, so you can see it from someone elses point of view.
Testimony is just awful, incredibly awful. For him to run 2nd in any kind of grade one race, well, the others wouldnt have to get tired from chasing, they'd have to fall down.
The "101 lecture" as it was put, was an insult to the intelligence of anyone whose seen testimony's form in every other race hes ever run.
We all know how horses can spit the bit when they middle move or chase other horses, and how horses can suck up in a big race by saving ground and just riding the last 1/8th out to pass the dead horses.
But have you ever SEEN Testimony? Him running 2nd is in the same league with Almutawakel winning the Classic(ever see his form?!!!!).
I think its safe to say that many of us detected a long time ago that the home track horses run shockingly good races that day that they never reproduce.

[blackthroatedwind]

You are the biggest Godolphin cheerleader NOT on their payroll. Do you deny that? Come on! You, like me, seem to be suspicious of everyone....but somehow you have decided Godolphin runs a clean operation. You love them....it's obvious. I hate them....that's also obvious.

Now you are taking the " medical attention " comment personally? I don't think so, I think you know I was kidding around but it seems to work for your agument now.

It would be one thing to suggest that you believe Testimony sucked up because the viable competitors all tired from chasing...but to explain it to me in the manner you did seemed a little over the top. But, I will concede that I MAY have overreacted, and ask you....how come Testimony wasn't able to suck up one bit in either of his US races...both of which had contentious paces?

[Cunningham Racing]

I don't care, man....I'm a good-natured dude and when people repeatedly come on hear and start negative drections to the debates it gets pretty old at this point.....I don't mean to insult anybodys intelligence and he should know that by now...he asked a question ad I answered it sincerely as to what I thought happpened...I mean, hell, anybody who saw the race could see that DC was the easy winner when they straightened for home....the others were flailing and it set up for some rat to run up for a cheap placing.....

The bottomline here is that I am shocked and a little disapopointed that I was jabbed in a negative way by the person who did it...I could easily see others and it wouldn't surprise me as much....I'm not trying to be a drama queen, but everything I have written in this thread has been light-hearted and not wth any negative intentions, yet I still cannot avoid stuff like the following wrote back to me:

<<<Don't f'n lecture me and talk down to me....especially with that kind of crap.>>>

...and crap about needing medical help.....it just gets old with all of this negativity on these damn threads....

I'm just disappointed right now.....:(

[oracle80]

You are the biggest Godolphin cheerleader NOT on their payroll. Do you deny that? Come on! You, like me, seem to be suspicious of everyone....but somehow you have decided Godolphin runs a clean operation. You love them....it's obvious. I hate them....that's also obvious.

Now you are taking the " medical attention " comment personally? I don't think so, I think you know I was kidding around but it seems to work for your agument now.

It would be one thing to suggest that you believe Testimony sucked up because the viable competitors all tired from chasing...but to explain it to me in the manner you did seemed a little over the top. But, I will concede that I MAY have overreacted, and ask you....how come Testimony wasn't able to suck up one bit in either of his US races...both of which had contentious paces?

I'm still waiting for an answer to Almutawakel. Same thing as Testimony.

[Coach Pants]

There is no such thing as a perfect man...:D

But there is such a thing as a perfect horse.
It's obvious you haven't met me. I can run the 40 in 11.2

[blackthroatedwind]

Get over it Joel...I did.

If you don't think you are opening yourself up to be teased about your affection for Godolphin then you need medi....ah you know what I mean.

You think the rest of us here DON'T need medical attention ( present poster in cluded )? Be serious.

[oracle80]

Joel you are only considering one possible explanation, I think thats the point.
In light of the consistent performances by the "house" horses on that day, year after year, would you not be a tad suspicious of results there.
I'm not talking down to you, and I'm sure you probably remember the data, but do you recall Almutawakel's World Cup win?
Gimme an explanation for that performance if you can. Because years later, I'm still scratching my head.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

It's obvious you haven't met me. I can run the 40 in 11.2

LOL Pillow Pants...:D

[Cunningham Racing]

You are the biggest Godolphin cheerleader NOT on their payroll. Do you deny that? Come on! You, like me, seem to be suspicious of everyone....but somehow you have decided Godolphin runs a clean operation. You love them....it's obvious. I hate them....that's also obvious.

Now you are taking the " medical attention " comment personally? I don't think so, I think you know I was kidding around but it seems to work for your agument now.

It would be one thing to suggest that you believe Testimony sucked up because the viable competitors all tired from chasing...but to explain it to me in the manner you did seemed a little over the top. But, I will concede that I MAY have overreacted, and ask you....how come Testimony wasn't able to suck up one bit in either of his US races...both of which had contentious paces?

A) Remember, when I make a comment on here that it is NOT just to you....I am protecting my debates for every other person that reads this thread...you should undertsand that by now....these weren't PMs, this was a LIVE thread open to the public to see so I wanted to explain my point - like I always do - to the people not as educated to our sport as you or I...I'm really surprised you didn't see this...

B) As for the medical attention quote...I could really careless about what anyone on here personally thinks about me...that is why I give my name out when others are scared to...I believe in my ability to analyze this sprt as good as any so I say what I feel and I hope some people like the thoroughness and honesty of it...if you think that comment bothered me, your wrong...it was just an indicator as to where this thread was heading and it proved true once again - unfortunately....I have been listening you jabbing me for the last 3 months about how i liss the Shieks' ass in everytghing I do....I got yuour point on that like 4 months ago....yet, i've never lashed back or let it bother because i could careless...

c) So I like their horses, who gives a ****?...You don't...thats great...good for you, man. I also don't like (by the way, hate is a strong word) the freaking Yankees and I like the Braves, but who cares? Fans are fans....am I wrong because I like their horses and operation, no?...thats ridiculous man...just ridiculous...

Again, I'm a tad shocked here...:(

[Bold Reasoning]

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it... I think that in the breeding shed Bernardini will impact the breed dramatically; this will be in the manner of his brilliant sire A.P. indy and his immortal grandsire Seattle Slew. This will be further resurrection of the Bold Ruler line.

[blackthroatedwind]

I heard Elocutionist's connections are still more than a little confused about his sudden dirt form considering he apparantly didn't handle it prior to changing hands.

What happened to that horse by the way?

[Cunningham Racing]

Joel you are only considering one possible explanation, I think thats the point.
In light of the consistent performances by the "house" horses on that day, year after year, would you not be a tad suspicious of results there.
I'm not talking down to you, and I'm sure you probably remember the data, but do you recall Almutawakel's World Cup win?
Gimme an explanation for that performance if you can. Because years later, I'm still scratching my head.

I'd have to see it again...I know he's a Machivallian horse and I actually remmebered liking the horse some, but I cannot remember the race off hand right now.....sorry

[Cajungator26]

Get over it Joel...I did.

If you don't think you are opening yourself up to be teased about your affection for Godolphin then you need medi....ah you know what I mean.

You think the rest of us here DON'T need medical attention ( present poster in cluded )? Be serious.

I don't. :D

Well... maybe I do. By the way, I won't be on the Bernardini bandwagon until after he wins the JCGC. I think he's just as guilty as Discreet Cat in beating "nobodies."

[Cunningham Racing]

I heard Elocutionist's connections are still more than a little confused about his sudden dirt form considering he apparantly didn't handle it prior to changing hands.

What happened to that horse by the way?

Died of a heart attck after runnig 3rd on the turf behind hurricane run....I hated hinm on dirt too, actually....he was a Red Ransom wth STRICTLY turf action from what I couild tell and I hated his prospects on dirt....But I will say that he is a classy horse who was rplaying a home game in the World Cup against what I considered was a horrible renewal of the race...I mean, i like the story behind brass hat and all, but we all know that he was what he was and it sure wasn't a super horse.....

Electrocutionist beat a bad bunch, so he didnt have to be great on dirt...

[blackthroatedwind]

Yup, Joel, we all have our rooting interests. Myself, I root for my friends. I root for the Baltimore Orioles and I root for Nick Zito's horses. But, I don't constantly trump up their chances while ignoring reality. I am sure I am in some ways blinded but I try to at least keep my personal rooting interests in check when posting...or at least I am up front about it.

I like that you love Godolphin, it gives me constant opportunities to tease you, and you have to admit you open yourself up for it. My actual question is what is the genesis of this affection...if you don't mind.

[oracle80]

I'd have to see it again...I know he's a Machivallian horse and I actually remmebered liking the horse some, but I cannot remember the race off hand right now.....sorry
Lemme condense it for you, he never had any good form above the grade 3 level. He freaked out and won easily, then later that year couldnt hit the board in an overnight handicap at Belmont.
I only bring this up because you bash a lotta guys and charge form reversals by their horses and elude to methods they may be using.
You love the Sheiks? Gee I hadn't noticed,lol. What I'm saying is that its ok to love a team or trainer or owner, but in order to be fair wouldn't it be safe to say that some of these horses owned by the folks you love show similiar characteristics to the horses trained by the guys you like to bash?
I think thats a very fair way to put it.

[Coach Pants]

Died of a heart attck after runnig 3rd on the turf behind hurricane run....I hated hinm on dirt too, actually....he was a Red Ransom wth STRICTLY turf action from what I couild tell and I hated his prospects on dirt....But I will say that he is a classy horse who was rplaying a home game in the World Cup against what I considered was a horrible renewal of the race...I mean, i like the story behind brass hat and all, but we all know that he was what he was and it sure wasn't a super horse.....

Electrocutionist beat a bad bunch, so he didnt have to be great on dirt...
Brass Hat IS a super horse. What he's accomplished is absolutely incredible considering the injury he had to come back from.

[oracle80]

Brass Hat IS a super horse. What he's accomplished is absolutely incredible considering the injury he had to come back from.
Buthes not well bred or owned by Sheikhs so that doesnt matter.:rolleyes:

[blackthroatedwind]

Died of a heart attck after runnig 3rd on the turf behind hurricane run....I hated hinm on dirt too, actually....he was a Red Ransom wth STRICTLY turf action from what I couild tell and I hated his prospects on dirt....But I will say that he is a classy horse who was rplaying a home game in the World Cup against what I considered was a horrible renewal of the race...I mean, i like the story behind brass hat and all, but we all know that he was what he was and it sure wasn't a super horse.....

Electrocutionist beat a bad bunch, so he didnt have to be great on dirt...


I agree he beat a relatively bad bunch, but it still surprises me that he handled the dirt even that effectively, and to be honest I think the performances by Godolphin horses on Dubai World Cup day are often a little surprising.

Yes, I was joking, as I know he's dead and frankly he is on my list, which is growing WAY too rapidly, of horses that died mysteriously very shortly after dramatically improving their form. It seems to me Godolphin has horses on this list just like a lot of others that you and I would agree are AT LEAST a little suspicious. But, you know me, I'm just paranoid.

[Cajungator26]

I think most of you are being too hard on Joel when it comes to Godolphin. They just happen to have some of the best horses in their barn. Lots of money = lots of nice horses. I don't think that Godolphin needs Joel to promote them... Bernardini does that.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Not meaning to take sides, but I agree Cajun.

Also, he picked out these horses at the beginning of the year before everyone saw what monsters they were. He had Bernardini in the Preakness. It's not like he started talking about them after the fact. I think that the sheiks horses are wonderful and by some of your standards, I "promote" them as well. Of course, I didn't catch on as quickly to the depth of talent in that stable as Joel did... I admire his boldness, and in this case, he happened to be right.

[Coach Pants]

Yeah but picking the sheikhs horses to do well is like picking the Yankees to win it all. You're going to be right eventually. BFD.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Yeah but picking the sheikhs horses to do well is like picking the Yankees to win it all. You're going to be right eventually. BFD.

He didn't just pick the sheiks horses to do well. He said that they were the best horses in the world, and he specifically named them...

What does BFD stand for? I'm probably going to feel really stupid when you tell me because it is probably really simple and obvious....

[Cajungator26]

He didn't just pick the sheiks horses to do well. He said that they were the best horses in the world, and he specifically named them...

What does BFD stand for? I'm probably going to feel really stupid when you tell me because it is probably really simple and obvious....

Big f'ing deal. :D

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Big f'ing deal. :D

Well, that's not very nice...

[blackthroatedwind]

Godolphin just spent $56 Million dollars for horses in 3 days at Keeneland.

They better get some of the best horses in the world.

They also bought Comonmom ( I think that was the slug's name ) for $3 Million after he finished second in the Remsen. He never hit the board again.

You want to know why we don't get many good horses in America anymore? Because the Sheik and Coolmore have pretty much bought a high percentage of our best horseflesh and until recently all of the best horses they bought raced in Europe. Now, I know they bred Bernardini, but where do you think her dam, Cara Rafael, came from.

Hey, it's business, and I understand it. The Sheik has the money and the right to pay whatever he wants, and if I was a breeder I would love them for making me rich as well. But, because of their obscene wealth they have effectively cornered the market and made it very hard for others to compete. But, please don't try and convince me that they have done anything brilliant, as all they have really done is simply massively outspent everyone else.

I mean, honestly, how much have they spent for both yearlings, unraced 2YOs AND raced ( and sometimes proven ) 2YOs and this is the first year they have made a serious dent in American racing? Pardon me if I'm not impressed.

But, let's be honest, I have never forgiven the Sheik for running Lamterra four times and declaring after the Arc, in reference to why he was retiring him and skipping the BC, " he's done enough ". Yeah, why race 'em when you can retire 'em.

[Coach Pants]

He didn't just pick the sheiks horses to do well. He said that they were the best horses in the world, and he specifically named them...

What does BFD stand for? I'm probably going to feel really stupid when you tell me because it is probably really simple and obvious....
Thus my comparison to picking the Yankees to win the world series. And if he picked these horses back in May well that's not that bold of a prediction considering Discreet Cat annihilated his competition in the UAE Derby and there was talk of Bernardini way before the Preakness.

I hit a $20 pick 4 Travers Day by singling the three sheikh horses but I don't go around tooting my own horn on predicting the outcome correctly. Nor do I want praise for being right. BFD for picking the obvious. :D

[Gander]

Wow, you singled Ashkal Way, Henny Hughes and Bernardini? That takes balls. How'd you ever come up with those 3?

[Coach Pants]

Wow, you singled Ashkal Way, Henny Hughes and Bernardini? That takes balls. How'd you ever come up with those 3?

I looked at the Sheikhs and noticed they had big muscles and were too strong for us lowly americans. I collected my winnings and tooted my own horn repeatedly in private. Just wish others would toot their horns in private as well. :eek:

[Cajungator26]

My point is this:

BFD that he likes the Sheikh's horses. Why bust his balls over it every minute? :eek:

[Coach Pants]

My point is this:

BFD that he likes the Sheikh's horses. Why bust his balls over it every minute? :eek:

BFD that we bust his balls about liking the sheikh's horses. :D

[blackthroatedwind]

My point is this:

BFD that he likes the Sheikh's horses. Why bust his balls over it every minute? :eek:

That's ridiculous and you know it. Nobody is coming close to busting " his balls over it every minute ". EVERY time anyone brings it up it is in response to yet another thread from him about how great the Sheiks horses are. If he wants to promote them he should be prepared to have to defend his thoughts.

And, frankly, he is.

[Cajungator26]

That's ridiculous and you know it. Nobody is coming close to busting " his balls over it every minute ". EVERY time anyone brings it up it is in response to yet another thread from him about how great the Sheiks horses are. If he wants to promote them he should be prepared to have to defend his thoughts.

And, frankly, he is.

Funny, because I thought this thread was about Discreet Cat... not how great the colts' connections were. :D

And to be completely honest, I'd rather read a hundred threads about DC and Bernardini if it meant avoiding just ONE of the garbage posts (like the one this morning.)

[blackthroatedwind]

Didn't catch this morning's garbage post.

Like I said before, I like when Joel gets out the Godolphin pom-poms, as I am always eager to jump on them. I don't like them and I doubt I ever will. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate Bernardini and Discreet Cat ( who they simply outbid everyone for after he had raced...the price is from $4 million to $10 million depending on who you believe ), among others, but I have no idea why people are impressed by Godolphin unless they have their hands in the Godolphin wallets.

[Cunningham Racing]

Yup, Joel, we all have our rooting interests. Myself, I root for my friends. I root for the Baltimore Orioles and I root for Nick Zito's horses. But, I don't constantly trump up their chances while ignoring reality. I am sure I am in some ways blinded but I try to at least keep my personal rooting interests in check when posting...or at least I am up front about it.

I like that you love Godolphin, it gives me constant opportunities to tease you, and you have to admit you open yourself up for it. My actual question is what is the genesis of this affection...if you don't mind.

Again, I like their HORSES...if Hitler owned Discreet Cat and Bernardini I would be a fan of the horses...I can't help who owns them..

I have never met or done business with ANYBODY affiliated with that group, so it isn't for any other reason other than they have the right horses that make me appreciate their operation as a fan of horse racing...period...

Hell, I know plenty of semi-big owners out there who I would much rather root for, but they don't have the right horses...it is one thing to root for people you want to see do well and it is another thing ton appreciate the beauty of greatness (Bernardini and Discreet Cat and Henny Hughes, etc.) when you see it - regardless of who owns it....the freakin' horses cannot control who owns them for God's sake :confused:

[oracle80]

Funny, because I thought this thread was about Discreet Cat... not how great the colts' connections were. :D

And to be completely honest, I'd rather read a hundred threads about DC and Bernardini if it meant avoiding just ONE of the garbage posts (like the one this morning.)

what was the garbage post cajun?

[blackthroatedwind]

Again, I like their HORSES...if Hitler owned Discreet Cat and Bernardini I would be a fan of the horses...I can't help who owns them..

I have never met or done business with ANYBODY affiliated with that group, so it isn't for any other reason other than they have the right horses that make me appreciate their operation as a fan of horse racing...period...

Hell, I know plenty of semi-big owners out there who I would much rather root for, but they don't have the right horses...it is one thing to root for people you want to see do well and it is another thing ton appreciate the beauty of greatness (Bernardini and Discreet Cat and Henny Hughes, etc.) when you see it - regardless of who owns it....the freakin' horses cannot control who owns them for God's sake :confused:


I wouldn't root for horses that Hitler owned no matter how good they were....but that's just me. Maybe I only feel that way because it's Yom Kippur....but I doubt it.

By the way, not the analogy I would have made when defending my love of Godolphin.

[Cunningham Racing]

Brass Hat IS a super horse. What he's accomplished is absolutely incredible considering the injury he had to come back from.

We are all entitled to our opinions here.....

[Cajungator26]

Didn't catch this morning's garbage post.

Like I said before, I like when Joel gets out the Godolphin pom-poms, as I am always eager to jump on them. I don't like them and I doubt I ever will. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate Bernardini and Discreet Cat ( who they simply outbid everyone for after he had raced...the price is from $4 million to $10 million depending on who you believe ), among others, but I have no idea why people are impressed by Godolphin unless they have their hands in the Godolphin wallets.

I don't like Godolphin either. Still... you can't hate their horses because they're owned by them. (Or I guess you could.) LOL What would happen if Bernardini got bought by Coolmore. Would you like him more or less then?

[Coach Pants]

Again, I like their HORSES...if Hitler owned Discreet Cat and Bernardini I would be a fan of the horses...I can't help who owns them..

I have never met or done business with ANYBODY affiliated with that group, so it isn't for any other reason other than they have the right horses that make me appreciate their operation as a fan of horse racing...period...

Hell, I know plenty of semi-big owners out there who I would much rather root for, but they don't have the right horses...it is one thing to root for people you want to see do well and it is another thing ton appreciate the beauty of greatness (Bernardini and Discreet Cat and Henny Hughes, etc.) when you see it - regardless of who owns it....the freakin' horses cannot control who owns them for God's sake :confused:
So if Hitler would have owned Bernardini and DC you would have titled the travers thread...

Hitler will show his strength this weekend at the Spa

ROTFLMMFAO!

[blackthroatedwind]

I don't like Godolphin either. Still... you can't hate their horses because they're owned by them. (Or I guess you could.) LOL What would happen if Bernardini got bought by Coolmore. Would you like him more or less then?

Who likes Coolmore? Certainly not me.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Where is the Hitler remarks coming from...

It's not like Joel was actually comparing the sheiks to Hitler:confused:

He was just using Hitler as an e x a m p l e.

[Coach Pants]

Where is the Hitler remarks coming from...

It's not like Joel was actually comparing the sheiks to Hitler:confused:

He was just using Hitler as an e x a m p l e.

You seem upset. Are you and Joel having an online relationship?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

You seem upset. Are you and Joel having an online relationship?

No, I'm not upset. An internet message board rarely makes me upset. Its just that I know how he feels because people do the exact same thing to me.:D

No, other than friends. I would like to meet him one day though.

[Cajungator26]

what was the garbage post cajun?

The meras one.

[Cajungator26]

Who likes Coolmore? Certainly not me.

I was just using them as an example. :p

[blackthroatedwind]

The meras one.

Gee, would never have guessed that.

[Coach Pants]

No, its just that I know how he feels because people do the exact same thing to me.:D

So is he feeling hurt? If so i'll stop and leave him alone. I've worked with special needs children before and I know the trauma they go through with being picked on by their peers.

[Cajungator26]

Gee, would never have guessed that.

No shiat... LOL

[Cajungator26]

So is he feeling hurt? If so i'll stop and leave him alone. I've worked with special needs children before and I know the trauma they go through with being picked on by their peers.

Do you put pillows in their pants to make them feel better? LMFAO :D

[Coach Pants]

The meras one.
She's from the ESPN forum right? That alone explains everything. It's like an OTB on the wrong side of the tracks. :D

[Coach Pants]

Do you put pillows in their pants to make them feel better? LMFAO :D
haha well played ;)

[Cunningham Racing]

I wouldn't root for horses that Hitler owned no matter how good they were....but that's just me. Maybe I only feel that way because it's Yom Kippur....but I doubt it.

By the way, not the analogy I would have made when defending my love of Godolphin.

The point is that its all about the HORSE...thats what this game should be about to me....If you are a baseball fan you should apprecaite teh talent and abilities of Alex Rodriguez if YOU ARE A TRUE FAN THAT LOVES TO SEE GREATNESS....not because he plays for the Yankees. Hell, I'm supposed to hate A-Rod by your theory if you say that you would'nt apprecaite any horses Hitler owned - becasue I really dislike the yankees...But i like A-Rod becuase I apprecita good talent...that i the draw and dynamic for most fans...seeing something spectacular happen that average people cannot do, right...

I appreciate horses that are extra-ordinary - such as Bernardini and Discreet Cat...I could care less who owns them......What I cannot appreciate is an owner who I'm personal friends with that has a horse that wins the Louisiana Champions Day Lassie because - while I'm happy for that person - i know that the horse really is just another horse...a dime a dozen..

Bernardinis and Discreet Cats just don't come around enough for me to dislike them and not appreciate them for the petty reason of who owns them....

[Cajungator26]

She's from the ESPN forum right? That alone explains everything. It's like an OTB on the wrong side of the tracks. :D

Yep, but you guys get my point. It's better to read about horse racing than anything else (especially, when you come here for the horse racing.) I am FAR from a good handicapper, but I enjoy reading the horse racing posts... there is a lot to learn from multiple members on this forum.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

So is he feeling hurt? If so i'll stop and leave him alone. I've worked with special needs children before and I know the trauma they go through with being picked on by their peers.

I'm sure he probably doesn't really care, although I'm not really qualified to answer that question. I know that I get frustrated with it sometimes, and I really appreciate his insight, just as I appreciate a lot of other's insight on this board.

And stop. This was a nice thread... I was learning a lot. Now, I'm reduced to guessing what someone else is feeling.....

The shame...LOL:D

I am actually taking an Abnormal Psychology course right now. LOL.

[Cunningham Racing]

Where is the Hitler remarks coming from...

It's not like Joel was actually comparing the sheiks to Hitler:confused:

He was just using Hitler as an e x a m p l e.

Of course I was....comparing Hitler to the Shieks is crazy....

[Coach Pants]

I'm sure he probably doesn't really care, although I'm not really qualified to answer this question, but I get frustrated with it sometimes, and I really appreciate his insight, just as I appreciate a lot of others on this board. I take up for other people as well.

And stop. This was a nice thread... I was learning a lot. Now, I'm reduced to guessing what someone else is feeling.....

The shame...LOL:D
I'm just having fun with the thread. The thought of Hitler in the winner's circle at the Spa has me in stitches right now. I'm picturing all of the french bred turf horses scratching from their races. Oh the hilarity.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Yep, but you guys get my point. It's better to read about horse racing than anything else (especially, when you come here for the horse racing.) I am FAR from a good handicapper, but I enjoy reading the horse racing posts... there is a lot to learn from multiple members on this forum.

I second that. There is some good stuff on this board. I have learned a whole lot more since coming here.

[Gander]

This thread sucks. In fact this is the worst day ever on this board. Hopefully things will get better as we get closer to Saturday's racing.

[Coach Pants]

I give this thread 5 stars. From Beyer to Hitler, this thread shines. :D

[Gander]

I give this thread and this day of posting about a 2 on a scale of 1-10. Its an utter mess. Its reverting back to ESPN board ever so slowly.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I must have missed something?:confused:

[Cajungator26]

I give this thread and this day of posting about a 2 on a scale of 1-10. Its an utter mess. Its reverting back to ESPN board ever so slowly.

Then why post on it, Gander? :D

[Gander]

Then why post on it, Gander?

Great question.

[Coach Pants]

I give this thread and this day of posting about a 2 on a scale of 1-10. Its an utter mess. Its reverting back to ESPN board ever so slowly.
http://www.yaysports.com/ncaa/images/Crybaby.jpg

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Because its so slow around here that there isn't much to talk about...:D

[Coach Pants]

Maybe we need another thread about Discreet Cat to improve the overall ambiance of the forum. :D

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I know, we could title it "THE SHEIKS RULE". That would get people talking. Of course, whoever posted the thread would probably get called every name in the book...LOL.

[pgardn]

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it...

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

[Cajungator26]

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

I loved Foggy's form... Deep Impact also runs low.

[SentToStud]

I wouldn't root for horses that Hitler owned no matter how good they were....but that's just me. Maybe I only feel that way because it's Yom Kippur....but I doubt it.

By the way, not the analogy I would have made when defending my love of Godolphin.

Ah, so we see clearer now.

Maybe you'll feel differently the day after Yom Kippur ... but I doubt it.

So some Arabs have some nice horses. What's wrong with that? So they spend a lot of money? What's wrong with that?

Lots of horse racing industry people will hate the Arab horse owners for one simple reason.

Now that they are having success with their North American runners, we're seeing the sentiment tossed their way change from ridicule to to something even less attractive.

Personally, I wish them good luck. They have some nice ones, they got a triple crown race win and I look for their horses to do well the rest of the year.

Signed,
Unpaid Godolphin Shill

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

Lava who??????:p

[pgardn]

Lava who??????:p
THis animal has been challenged. I love this horse. But I dont know about him traveling. Seems to have trouble. But this is the horse I would like to see win the BCC. But JC could not stand to have a former claimer win an event of this magnitude. Got to have that blue blood.

[bogeydaman]

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

And......... after he wins the JCGG and the BCC by open lengths and not challenged (IMO) this will still not be answered. After all there was a post last week how weak the top 10 was for 3yr olds and up. I can hear the excuses now for why Bernadini wins the Classic so easily (Invasor ran but not recovered and / or not that good, everyone knows Lava Man can't run outside the West Coast, None of the Euro's took to the dirt, such and such had a horrible ride, did not take to the CD track, etc, etc, etc.). So, if and when Bernardini runs away from these next 2 fields, does he "get his due" as a great horse or a horse that is running against both a week 3 year old class (which I don't agree with) as well as 3+ class (after beating olders 2x)? Lets face it there is no Ghostzappers, St. Liams, etc out there this year.

[pgardn]

And......... after he wins the JCGG and the BCC by open lengths and not challenged (IMO) this will still not be answered. After all there was a post last week how weak the top 10 was for 3yr olds and up. I can hear the excuses now for why Bernadini wins the Classic so easily (Invasor ran but not recovered and / or not that good, everyone knows Lava Man can't run outside the West Coast, None of the Euro's took to the dirt, such and such had a horrible ride, did not take to the CD track, etc, etc, etc.). So, if and when Bernardini runs away from these next 2 fields, does he "get his due" as a great horse or a horse that is running against both a week 3 year old class (which I don't agree with) as well as 3+ class (after beating olders 2x)? Lets face it there is no Ghostzappers, St. Liams, etc out there this year.
And this of course is exactly what many people would like to see happen. Unchallenged then off to the shed unblemished.

[blackthroatedwind]

Ah, so we see clearer now.

Maybe you'll feel differently the day after Yom Kippur ... but I doubt it.

So some Arabs have some nice horses. What's wrong with that? So they spend a lot of money? What's wrong with that?

Lots of horse racing industry people will hate the Arab horse owners for one simple reason.

Now that they are having success with their North American runners, we're seeing the sentiment tossed their way change from ridicule to to something even less attractive.

Personally, I wish them good luck. They have some nice ones, they got a triple crown race win and I look for their horses to do well the rest of the year.

Signed,
Unpaid Godolphin Shill


Not sure what you're getting at.

I don't dislike Godolphin because they're Arabs ( I dislike Hitler because he was responsible for the mass murder of millions of Jews among other atrocities but that has nothing to do with Godolphin ). I dislike them because I believe they have had a detrimental affect on major racing in America.

They have every right to have operated as they have but I simply don't see them as a friend of American racing. Perhaps that will change, and it does seem we are seeing a few more of their horses, but they have done a lot of damage over the last twenty years.

[bogeydaman]

And this of course is exactly what many people would like to see happen. Unchallenged then off to the shed unblemished.

Not sure who these "people" you are referring to, but they are certainly not the majority of the board / fans. I don't get a chance to read all of the posts on this board, but I surely have not seen any that says I can't wait till xxxx horse retires??? Everything I read is about the desire for these horses to keep running?

Now if you are referring to the owners and those that would want to purchase his offspring then I agree. This horse is probably worth 25X (there are others on the board that would know this number better than me) its value in the shed than racing. Who can blame them? I don't if I was in their shoes (then again money is no object for them).

[Cunningham Racing]

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

A) The head stayed low is a trait of most A.P. Indys...the good and the bad ones....A.P. Indy himself was what we call a "rooter", or a horse that carries his head extremely low when in full stride....MANY A.P. Indys do this, even the bad ones...trust me on this...

B) Mineshaft was not as precocious as Bernardini and he just wasn't as good as him either...period...I'm sorry for those who disagree but I'm supremely confident we'll all see this to be true by the time Bernardini retires....i know them both VERY well, especially Mineshaft through Robby Albarado and Neil Howard and my days at Fair Grounds....trust me...I've put my hands on the horse many times...Bernardini is in another league...he just is...

C) Mineshaft's pedigree was comparable to Bernardini's but that is all IMO...he is not near the physical specimen, nor near the athlete...sorry, Bernardini is just more superior in several categories that it would take me longer to explain than its worth typing...

D) Also, Mieshaft has been a disappointment at sire as far as how his babies look in relation to the book of mares he got...Vindication and Empire Maker - fellow first crop sires - blew him out of the water in the sales arena....Bernardini has the chance to be a better stallion than his sire IMO...

E) LITF had one of the best bio-meshanics systems as long as that could be sophisticatedly measured....it was scientifically proven that LITF had hardly any wasted motion...all of his energy was positively moving forward and in an efficient, momentum and ryhtmicly generated motion.....he had very little wasted motion....Bernardini's stride is just as good or better IMO because he is so athletic that his feet don't appear to remain on the ground as much as LITF...An example of horrible action and severe wasted motion is Discreet Cat - but look how good he is with all of that extra, wasted motion...BTW, Mineshaft didn't move half as nicely as Bernardini does...

F) Bernardini has handled everything to this point with the upmost class and with immense ability....What makes you think he doesn't have the class to dig in and be a competitor when challenged? I would bet anything that he has the heart of Tiznow...he is a consumate pro in too many areas for me to believe otherwise....Plus, why fault the horse because he hasn't been challenged in the stretch yet? That just goes to show you how much better he is than the other horses...Any horse that can win a Classic race by open lengths as easy as he did IN JUST HIS 4th LIFETIME START is nothing short of special....He has won 4 straight graded stakes and 2 Grade 1s - ALL BY OPENS LENGTHS AND WITH IMMENSE EASE....Is that his fault? What more do you want him to do? Would you like him to slow down and let them catch him in mid-stretch before he starts to try?...comon man...:rolleyes:

[pgardn]

Not sure who these "people" you are referring to, but they are certainly not the majority of the board / fans. I don't get a chance to read all of the posts on this board, but I surely have not seen any that says I can't wait till xxxx horse retires??? Everything I read is about the desire for these horses to keep running?

Now if you are referring to the owners and those that would want to purchase his offspring then I agree. This horse is probably worth 25X (there are others on the board that would know this number better than me) its value in the shed than racing. Who can blame them? I don't if I was in their shoes (then again money is no object for them).

If the horse retires undefeated then one might be able to claim they got to see Colin or Personal Ensign. I like to see horses have to work for some of their victories. Not the horses fault though. I think the BCC will be a suprise for this horse. I get the field, who takes Bernardini in the BCC?

[Cunningham Racing]

By the way, disliking Goldolphin and the other Shieks because of how rich they are doesn't make sense to me....Nearly every poster on this board cannot relate to 99% of the owners in this industry as far as where they are on the economic scale, so who cares how rich the Shiek is? Jess Jackson, Jack Wolf, Mrs. Robsham, Mrs. Lewis, Ahmad Zayat...I could go on for 20 thread worth of names are ALL rich....when does rich become 'too rich'....I don't fell sorry for any of these millionaires.....just because Godolphin is wealthier than the rest of the rich crowd of Thoroughbred horse owners, why hate? He also puts up fifty times the risk that all other owners do....Remember this, horse raicng is a NON PROFITABLE business for 99% of owners and anybody else saying otherwords is just plain lying through their teeth...

If they wanted to take their ball and go home then it would adversly impact our industry by hundreds of millions a year - a negative impact our industry could not afford...many small breeders would go out of business if this happened...thats just a fact...why hate our game's biggest investor? :eek:

I think most people hate them because they percieve they are directly resposible for the fact that when they go to the pumps they have to fork up $3/gallon to put into their old Honda Civic when they know how rich the Shieks are...I think that is the root of 90% of the anomosity - of course that is just my opinion......the bottomline is that most owners in this game live in the top .5% of the economic ladder....whats rooting for the 'little' guy who is ONLY worth a few million instead of the Shieks as the enemies because they are worth $100 billion???...Rich is rich to me....it is a rare enough class...

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

"Garrett Gomez looking all over 4 the competion"


Durkin

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

Tell em Cunningham all those people can basically retire after pinhookin 1 horse that the Sheik wants. Seems like he does more for America than the people that are B I T C H I N about him and his money.:D

[blackthroatedwind]

I don't have any personal animus against the Sheik for anything other than what I perceive to have been his detrimental effect on American racing....period. I suppose if I dug deeper, or was less superficial, I could probably find other things to dislike, but this is not my concern at the current level. He is simply, as I see it, the enemy of American racing...or certainly has been.

Now, as far as suggesting they has risked a great deal more than the other rich people you brought up, well yes and really NO. Yes, the dollars they have put into the game are far greater but as a percentage of their net worth, the Arabs haven't come close to investing what the others you brought up. And, considering the vast wealth of the Arabs involved in the game, they have WAY more money left over should they lose every cent they put in the game than the others you brought up. So, in essense, their financial risk is ZERO.

The bottom line is they have contributed one thing, and really one thing only to this business in America, and that is dollars. They have enriched breeders and owners alike. But, what they have also done, is exported our finest bloodlines, and given us very little back in the way of sportsmanship in return. As I said before, they can do as they like, but I don't have to like it. I'm a horseplayer, and a racing fan, and I gain nothing from the bloodstock business.

[Sightseek]

A) The head stayed low is a trait of most A.P. Indys...the good and the bad ones....A.P. Indy himself was what we call a "rooter", or a horse that carries his head extremely low when in full stride....MANY A.P. Indys do this, even the bad ones...trust me on this...

B) Mineshaft was not as precocious as Bernardini and he just wasn't as good as him either...period...I'm sorry for those who disagree but I'm supremely confident we'll all see this to be true by the time Bernardini retires....i know them both VERY well, especially Mineshaft through Robby Albarado and Neil Howard and my days at Fair Grounds....trust me...I've put my hands on the horse many times...Bernardini is in another league...he just is...

C) Mineshaft's pedigree was comparable to Bernardini's but that is all IMO...he is not near the physical specimen, nor near the athlete...sorry, Bernardini is just more superior in several categories that it would take me longer to explain than its worth typing...

D) Also, Mieshaft has been a disappointment at sire as far as how his babies look in relation to the book of mares he got...Vindication and Empire Maker - fellow first crop sires - blew him out of the water in the sales arena....Bernardini has the chance to be a better stallion than his sire IMO...

E) LITF had one of the best bio-meshanics systems as long as that could be sophisticatedly measured....it was scientifically proven that LITF had hardly any wasted motion...all of his energy was positively moving forward and in an efficient, momentum and ryhtmicly generated motion.....he had very little wasted motion....Bernardini's stride is just as good or better IMO because he is so athletic that his feet don't appear to remain on the ground as much as LITF...An example of horrible action and severe wasted motion is Discreet Cat - but look how good he is with all of that extra, wasted motion...BTW, Mineshaft didn't move half as nicely as Bernardini does...

F) Bernardini has handled everything to this point with the upmost class and with immense ability....What makes you think he doesn't have the class to dig in and be a competitor when challenged? I would bet anything that he has the heart of Tiznow...he is a consumate pro in too many areas for me to believe otherwise....Plus, why fault the horse because he hasn't been challenged in the stretch yet? That just goes to show you how much better he is than the other horses...Any horse that can win a Classic race by open lengths as easy as he did IN JUST HIS 4th LIFETIME START is nothing short of special....He has won 4 straight graded stakes and 2 Grade 1s - ALL BY OPENS LENGTHS AND WITH IMMENSE EASE....Is that his fault? What more do you want him to do? Would you like him to slow down and let them catch him in mid-stretch before he starts to try?...comon man...:rolleyes:

My apologies for going off topic, but what did you think of Barbaro's stride?

Also, on a side note, I don't think you have to be the richest of the rich to get the best yearling...as the recent study on the high priced Storm Cat's who have sold at Keeneland indicated, racing success can be achieved by the better eye, not always the better wallet. Of course, for horses in training, having the bigger wallet to make huge offers is very good too. ;)

[Cunningham Racing]

I don't have any personal animus against the Sheik for anything other than what I perceive to have been his detrimental effect on American racing....period. I suppose if I dug deeper, or was less superficial, I could probably find other things to dislike, but this is not my concern at the current level. He is simply, as I see it, the enemy of American racing...or certainly has been.

Now, as far as suggesting they has risked a great deal more than the other rich people you brought up, well yes and really NO. Yes, the dollars they have put into the game are far greater but as a percentage of their net worth, the Arabs haven't come close to investing what the others you brought up. And, considering the vast wealth of the Arabs involved in the game, they have WAY more money left over should they lose every cent they put in the game than the others you brought up. So, in essense, their financial risk is ZERO.

The bottom line is they have contributed one thing, and really one thing only to this business in America, and that is dollars. They have enriched breeders and owners alike. But, what they have also done, is exported our finest bloodlines, and given us very little back in the way of sportsmanship in return. As I said before, they can do as they like, but I don't have to like it. I'm a horseplayer, and a racing fan, and I gain nothing from the bloodstock business.

I respectably disagree, BTW...I tried to type in length why I disagree based on their economic impact but make post timed out when I tried to post it......

[Cunningham Racing]

My apologies for going off topic, but what did you think of Barbaro's stride?

Also, on a side note, I don't think you have to be the richest of the rich to get the best yearling...as the recent study on the high priced Storm Cat's who have sold at Keeneland indicated, racing success can be achieved by the better eye, not always the better wallet. Of course, for horses in training, having the bigger wallet to make huge offers is very good too. ;)

Barbaro had a grand stride....covered as much ground as any horse you'll see, but he DID have that high, turf action where his knees went really high in his natural gait and when he came down he slapped the ground pretty good, which is not advantageous for the health of a horse his size...he is a big, heavy animal.....I will say this though, he was pretty damn smooth for his size - which is just a testiment to his natural athleticism...

[randallscott35]

Does anyone know what he got for a thoro number for that effort?

[Sightseek]

Barbaro had a grand stride....covered as much ground as any horse you'll see, but he DID have that high, turf action where his knees went really high in his natural gait and when he came down he slapped the ground pretty good, which is not advantageous for the health of a horse his size...he is a big, heavy animal.....I will say this though, he was pretty damn smooth for his size - which is just a testiment to his natural athleticism...

yup, I never liked his stride because of that high action.

[ceejay]

If Discrete Cat were to go in the Breeders' Cup (really any he's eligible for) he certainly would not be a top choice for me. Why? Because he's never faced any top grade North American competition. Not a single graded stakes winner in the Jerome. He did face a full field in Dubai and beat Invasor (who clearly did not run his best race) but I wonder how Discrete Cat would stand up to the insanity that the 14-horse BC Sprint is.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

yup, I never liked his stride because of that high action.

I loved the way that horse moved. His stride was gigantic...He covered so much ground that it was unbelieveable. When his he was in the suspension stage of his stride when all four legs were off the ground, the toes of his hooves were literally like a foot and a half off the ground. He was a freak in that sense. I forgave his high knee action, although Joel was right in that it causes a horse to hit the ground a little harder than what is desirable. However, it didn't seem as if Barbaro hit the ground very hard at all. He was a very tall horse, but he was hound gutted and finely built. His conformation and movement is what made him so fast. Barbaro was in every sense, a freak.

[bogeydaman]

If the horse retires undefeated then one might be able to claim they got to see Colin or Personal Ensign. I like to see horses have to work for some of their victories. Not the horses fault though. I think the BCC will be a suprise for this horse. I get the field, who takes Bernardini in the BCC?

He is not undefeated. He lost his 1st race.

[pgardn]

A) The head stayed low is a trait of most A.P. Indys...the good and the bad ones....A.P. Indy himself was what we call a "rooter", or a horse that carries his head extremely low when in full stride....MANY A.P. Indys do this, even the bad ones...trust me on this...

B) Mineshaft was not as precocious as Bernardini and he just wasn't as good as him either...period...I'm sorry for those who disagree but I'm supremely confident we'll all see this to be true by the time Bernardini retires....i know them both VERY well, especially Mineshaft through Robby Albarado and Neil Howard and my days at Fair Grounds....trust me...I've put my hands on the horse many times...Bernardini is in another league...he just is...

C) Mineshaft's pedigree was comparable to Bernardini's but that is all IMO...he is not near the physical specimen, nor near the athlete...sorry, Bernardini is just more superior in several categories that it would take me longer to explain than its worth typing...

D) Also, Mieshaft has been a disappointment at sire as far as how his babies look in relation to the book of mares he got...Vindication and Empire Maker - fellow first crop sires - blew him out of the water in the sales arena....Bernardini has the chance to be a better stallion than his sire IMO...

E) LITF had one of the best bio-meshanics systems as long as that could be sophisticatedly measured....it was scientifically proven that LITF had hardly any wasted motion...all of his energy was positively moving forward and in an efficient, momentum and ryhtmicly generated motion.....he had very little wasted motion....Bernardini's stride is just as good or better IMO because he is so athletic that his feet don't appear to remain on the ground as much as LITF...An example of horrible action and severe wasted motion is Discreet Cat - but look how good he is with all of that extra, wasted motion...BTW, Mineshaft didn't move half as nicely as Bernardini does...

F) Bernardini has handled everything to this point with the upmost class and with immense ability....What makes you think he doesn't have the class to dig in and be a competitor when challenged? I would bet anything that he has the heart of Tiznow...he is a consumate pro in too many areas for me to believe otherwise....Plus, why fault the horse because he hasn't been challenged in the stretch yet? That just goes to show you how much better he is than the other horses...Any horse that can win a Classic race by open lengths as easy as he did IN JUST HIS 4th LIFETIME START is nothing short of special....He has won 4 straight graded stakes and 2 Grade 1s - ALL BY OPENS LENGTHS AND WITH IMMENSE EASE....Is that his fault? What more do you want him to do? Would you like him to slow down and let them catch him in mid-stretch before he starts to try?...comon man...:rolleyes:

Better than Mineshaft no way in hell. Not yet. NO flippin way. Way premature. And who cares about how early he shows his stuff besides people that want to win IMMEDIATELY, which of course one of the WORST possible things for this sport. Cmon Joel C.
Heart of Tiznow??????????

WTF. You have to be challenged. Good lord, the supposition is amazing. Your making me want this horse to fold up like a garage sale lawn chair, and I really like the horse.

[Cajungator26]

He is not undefeated. He lost his 1st race.

Yep, which means that he could lose again.

[randallscott35]

Better than Mineshaft no way in hell. Not yet. NO flippin way. Way premature. And who cares about how early he shows his stuff besides people that want to win IMMEDIATELY, which of course one of the WORST possible things for this sport. Cmon Joel C.
Heart of Tiznow??????????

WTF. You have to be challenged. Good lord, the supposition is amazing. Your making me want this horse to fold up like a garage sale lawn chair, and I really like the horse.

Couldn't agree more. Beat older horses a few times before he is annointed the best thing since sliced bread...Plus, taking a shot at his foals is premature. Plus I don't judge horses based on how well they do in the shed. Is Spectacular Bid somehow downgraded b/c he was a bust in the shed? Of course not. Let's give Bernardini some time. Like another year. Then we can look again.

[pgardn]

He is not undefeated. He lost his 1st race.

Corrected. Thanks.

Cunningham and I do not see eye to eye on strides. Again. One never knows how a horse will HOLD form when challenged while TIRED.

Example. If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont I do not think he would have had the same time. Secretariat was running so smoothly, very relaxed, because the horse was not challenged. I take nothing away from that run because the horse was extraordinarily fast. But he would not have run that smoothly, imo, if he had horses surrounding him down the stretch. Very few thoroughbreds maintain the same stride when tired and challenged, very few. So I wish to see him challenged and run with the same stride. Tiznow my arse.

[Betsy]

Couldn't agree more. Beat older horses a few times before he is annointed the best thing since sliced bread...Plus, taking a shot at his foals is premature. Plus I don't judge horses based on how well they do in the shed. Is Spectacular Bid somehow downgraded b/c he was a bust in the shed? Of course not. Let's give Bernardini some time. Like another year. Then we can look again.

Fair enough, but I've seen plenty of posts knocking this horse for winning too easily. Should Bernardini be penalized for being exceptionally talented? I also think people are assuming that he will show no heart when challenged- based on what? What happens if he wins the Classic in fine style, and doesn't have to truly dig down to earn that victory? Does he then get penalized because he was too good, even for the older horses?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Yep, which means that he could lose again.

We are all hoping that he doesn't lose this one...This one is much more important.

[Cajungator26]

We are all hoping that he doesn't lose this one...This one is much more important.

Call me weird, but I almost hope he does. I just haven't liked him much since the get-go. I'm sorry. :o

[pgardn]

Fair enough, but I've seen plenty of posts knocking this horse for winning too easily. Should Bernardini be penalized for being exceptionally talented? I also think people are assuming that he will show no heart when challenged- based on what? What happens if he wins the Classic in fine style, and doesn't have to truly dig down to earn that victory? Does he then get penalized because he was too good, even for the older horses?

and i repeat:

Example. If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont, I do not think he would have had the same time. Secretariat was running so smoothly, very relaxed, because the horse was not challenged. I take nothing away from that run because the horse was extraordinarily fast. But he would not have run that smoothly, imo, if he had horses surrounding him down the stretch. Very few thoroughbreds maintain the same stride when tired and challenged, very few. So I wish to see him challenged and run with the same stride. Tiznow my arse.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Fair enough, but I've seen plenty of posts knocking this horse for winning too easily. Should Bernardini be penalized for being exceptionally talented? I also think people are assuming that he will show no heart when challenged- based on what? What happens if he wins the Classic in fine style, and doesn't have to truly dig down to earn that victory? Does he then get penalized because he was too good, even for the older horses?

Betsy, IMO, he'll show a lot of guts when he is challenged. I mean, look at the expression on his face when he runs. He has one of the meanest looks of any horse that I have ever seen while running. He is fierce and menacing. He always has those ears pinned back, and that eyeball turned backward, and that nose crinkled, daring for a horse to come close to him in the stretch even though the other horses are lengths back. He is also one of the best galloping horses that I have seen. His stride is so rhymical, powerful, and fluid.

And you basically read my mind on those other questions that you asked. However, I think that he will be challenged sometime or another in a race. Some people will always criticize Bernardini for one reason or another no matter what he does...Personally, I think that he is fantastic.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Call me weird, but I almost hope he does. I just haven't liked him much since the get-go. I'm sorry. :o

Cajun, for some stupid reason, I thought that you all were talking about Barbaro, not Bernardini. That was my mistake.:o

We were talking about Barbaro earlier on this thread as well...

[Betsy]

and i repeat:

Example. If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont, I do not think he would have had the same time. Secretariat was running so smoothly, very relaxed, because the horse was not challenged. I take nothing away from that run because the horse was extraordinarily fast. But he would not have run that smoothly, imo, if he had horses surrounding him down the stretch. Very few thoroughbreds maintain the same stride when tired and challenged, very few. So I wish to see him challenged and run with the same stride. Tiznow my arse.


I read your post, but we're talking about different things. I think Bernardini has a beautiful, effortless motion, but if he looks different when hooked, it will hardly change my opinion of him. I don't love him just because of his mechanics. In any case, Bernardini can't win for losing. If he beats horses easily, even a top field in the Classic, it won't prove anything because he was too good? In order to prove himself, it would be better if he were less talented?

[Cunningham Racing]

Better than Mineshaft no way in hell. Not yet. NO flippin way. Way premature. And who cares about how early he shows his stuff besides people that want to win IMMEDIATELY, which of course one of the WORST possible things for this sport. Cmon Joel C.
Heart of Tiznow??????????

WTF. You have to be challenged. Good lord, the supposition is amazing. Your making me want this horse to fold up like a garage sale lawn chair, and I really like the horse.

Sorry man, he's better than Mineshaft...I know he has to prove it by his race record to justify it to those who can't decipher between the talent of the two - but I knew when I saw him break his maiden, win the Withers and then improve around two turns by running away in the Preakness in just his 4th lifetime start - I knew he was better than Mineshaft...you can just see it if you know how to judge horse talent....

BTW, he probably won't have to be as game as Tiznow in his career IMO....some brave horses like Tiznow look brave on a frequent basis because they like to wait on there competition to come to them and then re-accelerate....Bernardini doesn't hang, he runs the race his rider asks of him and doesn't need the competition to fire...that is the ultimate sign of class IMO....don't blame him for not being hooked yet becasue it is unlikely that happens much in his career....he is just too fast and he will frequently run away from his challengers in the stretch....I would bet anything that if he encounters a challenger that is actually fast enough to hook him - which I believe to be unlikely - he will respond with the same class of a champion he has shown in every other aspect of his racing career to this point IMO

[Betsy]

Betsy, IMO, he'll show a lot of guts when he is challenged. I mean, look at the expression on his face when he runs. He has one of the meanest looks of any horse that I have ever seen while running. He is fierce. He always has those ears pinned back, and that eyeball turned backward daring for a horse to come close to him in the stretch even though the other horses are lengths back. He is also one of the best galloping horses that I have seen. His stride is so rhymical, powerful, and fluid.

And you basically read my mind on those other questions that you asked. However, I think that he will be challenged sometime or another in a race. Some people will always criticize Bernardini for one reason or another no matter what he does...Personally, I think that he is fantastic.

I also think he'll show his class and heart in battle (no big surprise there) - he seems to be an extremely competitive horse. He'll be in a real dogfight in the Classic - big field, tough and talented older horses- if he wins, whether it's easily or by a nose, he'll have earned it. I really am sorry that Invasor won't be in the Gold Cup ; I'd like to see Sun King in the race or even Wandering Boy. In any case, Saturday is going to be fun; I'll finally get to see him up close and in person

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I also think he'll show his class and heart in battle (no big surprise there) - he seems to be an extremely competitive horse. He'll be in a real dogfight in the Classic - big field, tough and talented older horses- if he wins, whether it's easily or by a nose, he'll have earned it. I really am sorry that Invasor won't be in the Gold Cup ; I'd like to see Sun King in the race or even Wandering Boy. In any case, Saturday is going to be fun; I'll finally get to see him up close and in person

I envy you Betsy. I have to wait until Nov. 4th to see him.

[pgardn]

I read your post, but we're talking about different things. I think Bernardini has a beautiful, effortless motion, but if he looks different when hooked, it will hardly change my opinion of him. I don't love him just because of his mechanics. In any case, Bernardini can't win for losing. If he beats horses easily, even a top field in the Classic, it won't prove anything because he was too good? In order to prove himself, it would be better if he were less talented?

NO. I hope the horse is challenged and then guts it out, holding form down the stretch at 1/2 f to go head to head and then pulling away. At least I used to until I read the nonsense.

And much of the love for the horse is the breeding, not the running. And that imo, ruins the sport. Puts him in the shed depriving me of seeing yet another great horse continue to run. I like to watch horses run. I personally dont give a rats .... what their babies are like.

I like the horses as individuals, not some sort of pedigree dog show animals with fat ladies trotting them about because they look so well. A little hand clap, splendid...

Thats not racing. Racing is for athletes. The horses are great athletes.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

NO. I hope the horse is challenged and then guts it out, holding form down the stretch at 1/2 f to go head to head and then pulling away. At least I used to until I read the nonsense.

And much of the love for the horse is the breeding, not the running. And that imo, ruins the sport. Puts him in the shed depriving me of seeing yet another great horse continue to run. I like to watch horses run. I personally dont give a rats .... what their babies are like.

I like the horses as individuals, not some sort of pedigree dog show animals with fat ladies trotting them about because they look so well. A little hand clap, splendid...

Thats not racing. Racing is for athletes. The horses are great athletes.

I love Bernardini for his talent and his performances on the track. I don't care one bit what his breeding is...

[Cunningham Racing]

If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont,

I'm sorry to have to bash a comment, but this is borderline ridiculous...horses don't get hooked the entire way around - especially horses that don't have to have the lead...he will settle off the pace and make his 1/2 mile to 3/8 mile run and if he gets hooked during that time period I guarantee you his competition won't be able to match strides with him late...

Not a good anology, man....

[Betsy]

NO. I hope the horse is challenged and then guts it out, holding form down the stretch at 1/2 f to go head to head and then pulling away. At least I used to until I read the nonsense.

And much of the love for the horse is the breeding, not the running. And that imo, ruins the sport. Puts him in the shed depriving me of seeing yet another great horse continue to run. I like to watch horses run. I personally dont give a rats .... what their babies are like.

I like the horses as individuals, not some sort of pedigree dog show animals with fat ladies trotting them about because they look so well. A little hand clap, splendid...

Thats not racing. Racing is for athletes. The horses are great athletes.

I can't argue with anyone wanting to see a horse put forth a gutty effort and prevail -I wouldn't mind seeing it myself from Bernardini (if for nothing else, to prove to others he's got a lot going for him besides pure talent). However, wouldn't you agree that a horse could show heart in other ways? The Classic will be by far the biggest field Bernardini has ever faced and we can presume he won't necessarily have the smoothest of trips. His tractability and quick turn of foot will allow him to avoid a lot of trouble, however. He's supposed to win that race if he's as good as advertised (and I believe he is), but wouldn't winning that race in and of itself be sufficient proof for his doubters (even if he doesn't have a ding dong battle down the stretch)?

I am just as frustrated as you that the racing game is now all about the breeding. I enjoy the breeding game very much, but seeing 3 year olds swooped off the track to the shed because owners are fearful of injury is very frustrating. They are in the wrong sport if they are so afraid. With great risk (running a top horse, who then may get injured), comes great reward (wonderful accomplishments on the track, championships, glory). Isn't that what sports is about? I honestly think the Sheikh is a true sportsman and wants to see his homebred colt continue to do him proud. If he decides that he has to have a Bernardini foal ASAP and retires him, I will be devastated. The Sheikh will take a hit if he doesn't run a potentially great horse next year..........

[pgardn]

I'm sorry to have to bash a comment, but this is borderline ridiculous...horses don't get hooked the entire way around - especially horses that don't have to have the lead...he will settle off the pace and make his 1/2 mile to 3/8 mile run and if he gets hooked during that time period I guarantee you his competition won't be able to match strides with him late...

Not a good anology, man....

Its not an anology. It is merely and example. Maybe poor so I will make it clearer.

Then have a fresh horse hook Secretariat as he rounds the turn. He would not have the same time.
Like I used to do with 3 other guys when we were trying to run a training Olympic long distance runner since none of us could keep up with him after 800 meters. We took turns jumping in and pushing him hard like he would experience on the track during his 5000 m and 10K. We could not stay with him individually.

This is what I am saying. Horses run much easier when not challenged. Thats why there is always a question mark next to a horse that breaks maiden 1st time out with a fantastic time and wins by open lengths. Is that too ridiculous? Take that a bit further and I think you understand what I am saying. Maybe give Bernardini a horrible start, get him caught down on the rail, and then blow them away late... then I am hooked. FACE a little adversity... champions face adversity and come through. Why is that so hard to understand...

[Merlinsky]

I'm sorry to have to bash a comment, but this is borderline ridiculous...horses don't get hooked the entire way around - especially horses that don't have to have the lead...he will settle off the pace and make his 1/2 mile to 3/8 mile run and if he gets hooked during that time period I guarantee you his competition won't be able to match strides with him late...

Not a good anology, man....


Two words, Smarty Jones. The two biggest horses in the race took it to him, missed out themselves, and wore him out enough to succumb to his breeding at the end. He could've pulled it out with the right type of run. Not a true mile and a halfer but he could've pulled it out on sheer class. Unfortunately he got hooked so much the weaknesses in his armor became clearer.

In Bernardini's case he's not had the opportunity to show gameness and heart. His talent's been enough to crush them like bugs thus far. He hasn't needed anything else and I wanna see him show his stuff for my own personal enjoyment as a fan of the sport. Even more so I want to see sportsmanship and the entry of Discreet Cat. You can avoid your own horses all year but the Classic is where you outta take the hit. Hey the Jacksons put their two undefeated horses in the Derby. That's what it's all about.