11/11 ATR: The Great HOTY Debate

[TouchOfGrey]

I love hearing you get so passionate, Steve. :)

[joeydb]

That caller "John" got my blood pressure going too. Unbelievable. Of course he's entitled to his opinion, but that last bit about the result being the same no matter who Zenyatta faced on whatever surface -- absurd.

Would that have worked with other horses? "I mean, take out Gio Ponte and substitute Secretariat...what's the big deal?" :rolleyes:

[Kasept]

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

[randallscott35]

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

Pretty astounding isn't it....

[Sightseek]

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

:tro:

[citycat]

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.


But horse racing is not logical. If it were then the favorites would win every horse race and we would not have the need for betting. I find it odd that people are trying to put HOY into such a logical box. It could be compared to MVP voting in other sports in that the statistical leaders do not always win MVP and there is always the debate of what "valuable" means.

I do not think there is a definition of HOY just as there is not a definition of MVP. Both horses are great choices of HOY and the choice does not have to be logical. There is subjectivity involved in which horse will win HOY and people will say that Zenyatta's "moment" was more powerful than RA and that is OK.

[randallscott35]

But horse racing is not logical. If it were then the favorites would win every horse race and we would not have the need for betting. I find it odd that people are trying to put HOY into such a logical box. It could be compared to MVP voting in other sports in that the statistical leaders do not always win MVP and there is always the debate of what "valuable" means.

I do not think there is a definition of HOY just as there is not a definition of MVP. Both horses are great choices of HOY and the choice does not have to be logical. There is subjectivity involved in which horse will win HOY and people will say that Zenyatta's "moment" was more powerful than RA and that is OK.
WTF......Objectivity is how we are to judge. Subjective means Well Armed's Dubai World Cup, the richest race in the world), should make him HOY.

[South Beach Luv]

WTF......Objectivity is how we are to judge. Subjective means Well Armed's Dubai World Cup, the richest race in the world), should make him HOY.

I doubt Trevor Denman will ever say this about the girls:

"She’s run another clunker"

:D

[freddymo]

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

Nothing like Byk on target.

[freddymo]

But horse racing is not logical. If it were then the favorites would win every horse race and we would not have the need for betting. I find it odd that people are trying to put HOY into such a logical box. It could be compared to MVP voting in other sports in that the statistical leaders do not always win MVP and there is always the debate of what "valuable" means.

I do not think there is a definition of HOY just as there is not a definition of MVP. Both horses are great choices of HOY and the choice does not have to be logical. There is subjectivity involved in which horse will win HOY and people will say that Zenyatta's "moment" was more powerful than RA and that is OK.


Perhaps we should beg for a new eclipse award Horse of the Moment..

[randallscott35]

Perhaps we should beg for a new eclipse award Horse of the Moment..
I like that idea....Black Beauty for me.

[slotdirt]

There's already an ESPY for this.

[randallscott35]

There's already an ESPY for this.

Best Performance By A Mare On Carpet Fibers----handed out by Pollard's Vision disciple Stewart Scott.

[freddymo]

Best Performance By A Mare On Carpet Fibers----handed out by Pollard's Vision disciple Stewart Scott.

I think dissing Zenyatta is just as silly as calliing her HOY. She is a great mare and deserves a lot of credit for a wonderful career. It isn't the mares fault that her connections precluded her from racing in NY against competition befitting her abilty. It is what it is lets move on to Rachel and her 4 year old campaign.

Imagine if we didn't have the mare and the filly Summer Slop would have been racings star. While he is OK UGH

[randallscott35]

Actually I wasn't dissing her at all. She is great. She isn't horse of the year.

[parsixfarms]

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.

[slotdirt]

I'm just really hoping Rachel Alexandra does turn into Ashado next year. I can recall watching Ashado get run down in the slop by Silmaril on the undercard of Funny Cide's unfortunate effort in the 2005 Pimlico Special. I can recall to this day a lady disconcerted with Ashado's performance coming down the stretch yelling "Come on, don't get beat by this Maryland-bred nag!"

[freddymo]

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.

Just because someone doesn't have strong cognitive abilty doesnt mean they are stupid nor would Byk call anyone stupid. It isn't irrational to call Zenyatta HoY it's just iirresponsible to the award.

It was a wonderful moment in racing when a classy terrific mare beat an ok field of colts and horses. She wasn't campaigned for HoY she was pointed to win the Classsic. Congrats she was awesome and thrilled all

[Kasept]

I do not think there is a definition of HOY just as there is not a definition of MVP. Both horses are great choices of HOY and the choice does not have to be logical. There is subjectivity involved in which horse will win HOY and people will say that Zenyatta's "moment" was more powerful than RA and that is OK.
There is a definition of Horse of the Year. It's the horse that accomplished the most over the course of their season. There may be tangential influences, but the race record compiled and gravity thereof remains the overwhelming criteria. There is no possible interpretation of their comparative seasons that places Zenyatta even at a level of equality with Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

[Kasept]

For those wanting some detail to appreciate the nuances of the campaigns...

Zenyatta ran in 5 races this year over 7 months (May 23-Nov 7) over 3 racetracks versus 33 entrants (25 horses)... 4 of which were repeats of races she ran in and won last year (Milady, Vanity, Hirsch, Lady's Secret) and one the Breeders' Cup Classic. She never left California in the 4 races and the Cup happened to be at one of the tracks she frequented most in her career (5/5). Anyway, she won all the races in which she ran, all on synthetic surfaces, and with authority.

Rachel Alexandra ran in 8 races this year over 7 months (Feb 15-Sept 5) over 7 different race tracks versus 50 entrants (47 horses). She demolished her own sex by a cumulative 40 lengths in 5 tries including 2 Oaks (Fair Grounds and Kentucky) and faced 3yo males twice, including in an American classic (Preakness) and in another highly regarded Gr. I (Haskell). She completed her year against older males in the Gr. I Woodward. Her winning a race versus elder males is an accomplishment that hadn't been done in more than 125 years in American racing.


Zenyatta beat these 25 horses in 2009:

---14 females---
Life Is Sweet (3X)
Allicansayiswow (2X)
Gambler's Justice
Champagne Eyes (2X)
Taste's Sis
Briecat (2X)
Dawn After Dawn (2X)
Hot n' Dusty
Modification
Anabaas Creation (2X)
Lethal Heat (2X)
Tidal Dance
Cocoa Beach
Made for Magic
----11 males----
Gio Ponti
Twice Over
Summer Bird
Colonel John
Richard's Kid
Awesome Gem
Regal Ransom
Mine That Bird
Rip Van Winkle
Einstein
Girolamo


Rachel Alexandra beat these 47 horses in 2009:

---23 females---
Afleet Deceit (2X)
Peach Brew
Affirmed Truth
Hello Again
Lake Lugano
My Spanx
Lil' Hottie
Bootprints
Flying Spur (2X)
Our Dahlia
Four Gifts
African Skies
War Tigress
Just Jenda
Bon Jovi Girl
Cats
Stone Legacy
Be Fair
Nan
Gabby's Golden Gal
Tweeter
Malibu Prayer
Flashing
---24 males---
Mine That Bird
Musket Man
Flying Private
Big Drama
Papa Clem (2X)
Terrain
Luv Gov
General Quarters
Friesan Fire
Pioneerof the Nile
Tone It Down
Take the Points
Summer Bird
Munnings
Duke of Mischief
Atomic Rain
Bunker Hill
Macho Again
Bullsbay
Asiatic Boy
It's a Bird
Past the Point
Cool Coal Man
Da' Tara

[hockey2315]

Very nice post, Steve.

[Kasept]

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.
Wow. "That statement" that I made was about as coldly unemotional as it could be. Not sure what alternate universe lexicon or pejorative equates what I wrote with calling someone stupid..

[The Indomitable DrugS]

pejorative

I was thinking the same thing.

[Kasept]

I was thinking the same thing.
I laughed..

[CSC]

There is a definition of Horse of the Year. It's the horse that accomplished the most over the course of their season. There may be tangential influences, but the race record compiled and gravity thereof remains the overwhelming criteria. There is no possible interpretation of their comparative seasons that places Zenyatta even at a level of equality with Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

I thought I heard Jon White on ATR explain it differently, it is simply who one thinks is 'Horse of the Year'. I'll have to review the show when I get home but that is how I thought he termed it.

[slotdirt]

I'm disinclined to make the efforts to compare these two fields, but who beat more GI winners? G2? Overall stakes winners?

[joeydb]

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.

WTF?? Are we all becoming a bunch of hypersensitive wusses? This is starting to sound like a soap opera.

[Antitrust32]

I'm disinclined to make the efforts to compare these two fields, but who beat more GI winners? G2? Overall stakes winners?


dont know.. but there were tons of stakes winners and GI winners in the Preakness, Haskell and Woodward. And considering Rachel faced twice as many horses I imagine rachel has faced more.

[CSC]

WTF?? Are we all becoming a bunch of hypersensitive wusses? This is starting to sound like a soap opera.

Like this is going to help...:rolleyes:

If anything it just shows how passionate these 2 horses evoke. Nothing wrong about that, we could go back to Curlin of last yrs HOY convo..zzz

[parsixfarms]

Wow. "That statement" that I made was about as coldly unemotional as it could be. Not sure what alternate universe lexicon or pejorative equates what I wrote with calling someone stupid..

If we want to split hairs on definitions, fine. I don't think people like to be told that they lack the ability to reason.

[NTamm1215]

If we want to split hairs on definitions, fine. I don't think people like to be told that they lack the ability to reason.

So it's OK to disagree and for people from each side to posit their own opinions but they have to be sure not to be bold or overly forthright in their opinion?

NT

[joeydb]

Well this is going to help...:rolleyes:

If anything it just shows how passionate these 2 horses evoke. Nothing wrong about that, we could go back to Curlin of last yrs HOY convo..zzz

Agree with understanding the passion. Would a similar debate over "Ali vs Frasier" devolve into all the sensitivity? I also agree that we are fortunate to see both of these fillies run this year -- their performances, along with the Mine That Bird run in the Derby made for a stellar highlight reel.

[parsixfarms]

There is a definition of Horse of the Year. It's the horse that accomplished the most over the course of their season. There may be tangential influences, but the race record compiled and gravity thereof remains the overwhelming criteria. There is no possible interpretation of their comparative seasons that places Zenyatta even at a level of equality with Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

Is the Eclipse awards definition of Horse of the Year, or is it your definition of what you think the award should be? My sense has always been that there has never been a clear-cut definition for any of the Eclipse awards, to some people's frustration and to others' preference.

[freddymo]

If we want to split hairs on definitions, fine. I don't think people like to be told that they lack the ability to reason.

If the shoe fits....

[letswastemoney]

Is the Eclipse awards definition of Horse of the Year, or is it your definition of what you think the award should be? My sense has always been that there has never been a clear-cut definition for any of the Eclipse awards, to some people's frustration and to others' preference.
The definition of horse of the year is already in the title....

"the year" not "the day"

[parsixfarms]

So it's OK to disagree and for people from each side to posit their own opinions but they have to be sure not to be bold or overly forthright in their opinion?

NT

As evidenced by the "vote" on this board and many other racing sites, many think this is a close call. There's a difference between having a strong opinion and telling someone else that they reached a different conclusion because they lack the ability to think rationally.

[joeydb]

Are you calling into the show tonight? :eek:

[CSC]

The definition of horse of the year is already in the title....

"the year" not "the day"

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

[slotdirt]

For those wanting some detail to appreciate the nuances of the campaigns...

Zenyatta ran in 5 races this year over 7 months (May 23-Nov 7) over 3 racetracks versus 33 entrants (25 horses)... 4 of which were repeats of races she ran in and won last year (Milady, Vanity, Hirsch, Lady's Secret) and one the Breeders' Cup Classic. She never left California in the 4 races and the Cup happened to be at one of the tracks she frequented most in her career (5/5). Anyway, she won all the races in which she ran, all on synthetic surfaces, and with authority.

Rachel Alexandra ran in 8 races this year over 7 months (Feb 15-Sept 5) over 7 different race tracks versus 50 entrants (47 horses). She demolished her own sex by a cumulative 40 lengths in 5 tries including 2 Oaks (Fair Grounds and Kentucky) and faced 3yo males twice, including in an American classic (Preakness) and in another highly regarded Gr. I (Haskell). She completed her year against older males in the Gr. I Woodward. Her winning a race versus elder males is an accomplishment that hadn't been done in more than 125 years in American racing.


Zenyatta beat these 25 horses in 2009:

---14 females---
Life Is Sweet (3X) - 2009 GI WInner
Allicansayiswow (2X) - 2009 G2 placed
Gambler's Justice - 2009 Listed Stakes placed
Champagne Eyes (2X) - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Taste's Sis - 2009 MSW winner
Briecat (2X) - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Dawn After Dawn (2X) - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Hot n' Dusty - 2009 AOC winner
Modification -
Anabaas Creation (2X) - 2009 G1 placed
Lethal Heat (2X) - 2009 G1 placed
Tidal Dance
Cocoa Beach
Made for Magic - 2009 CLM winner
----11 males----
Gio Ponti - 2009 GI winner
Twice Over - 2009 GI winner
Summer Bird - 2009 GI winner
Colonel John - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Richard's Kid - 2009 GI winner
Awesome Gem - 2009 G2 winner
Regal Ransom - 2009 GI winner
Mine That Bird - 2009 GI winner
Rip Van Winkle - 2009 GI winner
Einstein - 2009 GI winner
Girolamo - 2009 G2 winner


Rachel Alexandra beat these 47 horses in 2009:

---23 females---
Afleet Deceit (2X) - 2009 G2 placed
Peach Brew - 2009 G3 winner
Affirmed Truth
Hello Again
Lake Lugano
My Spanx
Lil' Hottie
Bootprints
Flying Spur (2X) - 2009G2 placed
Our Dahlia - 2009 ALW winner
Four Gifts - 2009 G3 winner
African Skies
War Tigress
Just Jenda - 2009 G3 winner
Bon Jovi Girl - 2009 G2 placed
Cats
Stone Legacy - 2009 GI placed
Be Fair - 2009 G3 winner
Nan - 2009 GI placed
Gabby's Golden Gal - 2009 GI winner
Tweeter - 2009 MSW winner
Malibu Prayer - 2009 Stakes winner
Flashing - 2009 GI winner
---24 males---
Mine That Bird - 2009 GI winner
Musket Man - 2009 G2 winner
Flying Private - 2009 G2 placed
Big Drama - 2009 Stakes winner
Papa Clem (2X) - 2009 G2 winner
Terrain - 2009 G2 placed (and deceased)
Luv Gov
General Quarters - 2009 G1 winner
Friesan Fire - 2009 G2 winner
Pioneerof the Nile - 2009 GI winner
Tone It Down
Take the Points - 2009 G1 winner
Summer Bird - 2009 GI winner
Munnings - 2009 G2 winner
Duke of Mischief - 2009 Stakes winner
Atomic Rain - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Bunker Hill - 2009 Stakes placed
Macho Again - 2009 GI winner
Bullsbay - 2009 GI winner
Asiatic Boy - 2009 GI placed
It's a Bird - 2009 G2 winner (well, sort of)
Past the Point - 2009 G3 placed
Cool Coal Man -
Da' Tara



I'm sure someone already covered this, but that's the best I could figure in so far as the relative qualifications of horses faced by both Z and Rachel.

[NTamm1215]

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

February 16, March 14, April 5, May 1, May 16, June 27, August 2, September 5, those were the dates of her races. I have no idea what you're trying to say and am completely unable to understand why her not running after 9/5 is such a problem to you. It is almost as ridiculous as someone saying Zenyatta can't win HOTY because she didn't start before 5/23.

NT

[slotdirt]

You know, who did win that nonsense race on Derby day for which Zenyatta was entered and scratched?

[freddymo]

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

If Jess didnt buy the horse she would have raced in the Coaching Club Alabama and perhaps the Distaff and most likely would be pointing for a date with AP INDY in Feb 2010

[Antitrust32]

As evidenced by the "vote" on this board and many other racing sites, many think this is a close call. There's a difference between having a strong opinion and telling someone else that they reached a different conclusion because they lack the ability to think rationally.


where is that picture Coach posts of the crying baby?

:baby:

[NTamm1215]

You know, who did win that nonsense race on Derby day for which Zenyatta was entered and scratched?

Miss Isella over One Caroline.

NT

[slotdirt]

Ah, that's right. Good thing Zenyatta didn't run there.

[CSC]

February 16, March 14, April 5, May 1, May 16, June 27, August 2, September 5, those were the dates of her races. I have no idea what you're trying to say and am completely unable to understand why her not running after 9/5 is such a problem to you. It is almost as ridiculous as someone saying Zenyatta can't win HOTY because she didn't start before 5/23.

NT

Basically what I am saying is we wouldn't be debating HOY right now had she raced in the BC, off the top of my head only a handful of horses have won HOY without racing in the BC the last 20 yrs, Point Given and Mineshaft come to mind, and this was not of their choosing due to injuries, if HOY wasn't in consideration I think none of us would care why she didn't show up on the biggest day of racing. That's the crux of it, we all respect both horses, but all of us have our reasons why one is thought of higher than the other, and right now it looks split right down the middle.

[Antitrust32]

Ah, that's right. Good thing Zenyatta didn't run there.


actually.. I seem to remember a big stretch dual and a very fast finishing time. Could be misremembering though.

[slotdirt]

I remember that the weather sucked and I didn't have the winner, mostly.

[Sightseek]

I remember that the weather sucked and I didn't have the winner, mostly.

I remember checking to see who Calvin was riding in the Derby after that and saying to myself "no way in hell" :o

[docicu3]

Why is it that so many people fail to take into account that recent events carry a stronger emotional significance than events or races of memories past. At times this is decades but occasionally it's weeks or months. To attach exaggerated significance to the classic compared to other Grade 1's is to by into the nonsense that the BC has the only races of significance during the year.

[NTamm1215]

Basically what I am saying is we wouldn't be debating HOY right now had she raced in the BC, off the top of my head only a handful of horses have won HOY without racing in the BC the last 20 yrs, Point Given and Mineshaft come to mind, and this was not of their choosing due to injuries, if HOY wasn't in consideration I think none of us would care why she didn't show up on the biggest day of racing. That's the crux of it, we all respect both horses, but all of us have our reasons why one is thought of higher than the other, and right now it looks split right down the middle.

You're forgetting something, based on what she had done, Rachel really didn't have to run again. After 9/5 we all knew it was going to take something extraordinary to displace her at the top of the HOTY heap. The difference now is that you think that happened. I don't.

NT

[CSC]

If Jess didnt buy the horse she would have raced in the Coaching Club Alabama and perhaps the Distaff and most likely would be pointing for a date with AP INDY in Feb 2010

We don't know that for sure, she may not have had the identical campaign, any Trainer, owner who gets in this game wouldn't pass on some salty races, look at Summer Bird's connections. I'm not sure if JJ is getting more credit than he truly deserves.

[CSC]

You're forgetting something, based on what she had done, Rachel really didn't have to run again. After 9/5 we all knew it was going to take something extraordinary to displace her at the top of the HOTY heap. The difference now is that you think that happened. I don't.

NT

And that's unfortunate because you could probably stage a pay per view event for a RA / Zen matchup, something we can now only speculate on.

[randallscott35]

As evidenced by the "vote" on this board and many other racing sites, many think this is a close call. There's a difference between having a strong opinion and telling someone else that they reached a different conclusion because they lack the ability to think rationally.
The same people who voted for Bush in '04 after everyone knew he was a moron.

[10 pnt move up]

The same people who voted for Bush in '04 after everyone knew he was a moron.

will those same people make the mistake and vote for Obama in 12'...just saying

[Revidere]

Truth be told Horse of the Year hasn't meant that much since they gave it to John Henry over Slew O'Gold in 1984.

I'm just glad we were able to see both of them run. Each race escalated the "WOW" factor. Now I need Rachel to do it again in 2010.

Before that we need to see Stardom Bound in the Gazelle!

The tale of the tape:

Rachel
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3569/3671357971_cc3b56d726_b.jpg

Zenyatta
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2594/4089110097_f0e08d533b_b.jpg

[randallscott35]

will those same people make the mistake and vote for Obama in 12'...just saying
I agree.

[CSC]

will those same people make the mistake and vote for Obama in 12'...just saying

This is how smart I am I have never voted for Bush Jr. nor have I ever voted for Obama.

[kgar311]

will those same people make the mistake and vote for Obama in 12'...just saying

Who ever voted for him the first time wasn't thinking rationally

[philcski]

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

Because the objective at that point was the Kentucky Oaks?

At the start of the year she was the prohibitive favorite for the KY Oaks. No one in their right mind would think she would have gone into the end of the season as the Breeders Cup CLASSIC favorite. The objective at the time was completed... in record fashion, no less. Her KY Oaks may have been the best performance I've ever seen at Churchill Downs, and that's saying a LOT.

[GBBob]

Who ever voted for him the first time wasn't thinking rationally

:rolleyes: Can't help yourself, can ya'

[kgar311]

:rolleyes: Can't help yourself, can ya'

Its ok Bob, you're not the only one regretting your vote

[The Indomitable DrugS]

At the start of the year she was the prohibitive favorite for the KY Oaks.

She wasn't favorite.

Stardom Bound was favored over her - and than Justwhistledixie after that.

She should have been a prohibitive favorite though.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Its ok Bob, you're not the only one regretting your vote

Obama has been far too much of a corporate democrat for my taste.

It's not like he was running against Kucinich though.

[philcski]

She wasn't favorite.

Stardom Bound was favored over her - and than Justwhistledixie after that.

She should have been a prohibitive favorite though.

OK, people with half a brain thought she was the favorite over Stardom Bound.

Justwhistledixie didn't really show up onto the scene until February in the Davona Dale... she started her 2009 campaign on the AQU inner track in a 6F mini-stake.

[CSC]

Because the objective at that point was the Kentucky Oaks?

At the start of the year she was the prohibitive favorite for the KY Oaks. No one in their right mind would think she would have gone into the end of the season as the Breeders Cup CLASSIC favorite. The objective at the time was completed... in record fashion, no less. Her KY Oaks may have been the best performance I've ever seen at Churchill Downs, and that's saying a LOT.

I want to re-address this point.

Yes you made a good valid point Phil, however I think it's also worth mentioning these 2 races didn't take a whole lot out of her, this was a reason what many of her backers brought up when they reference she had a long year so it was perfectly alright stopping on Sept 5, if this is the case then what about the other horses that run and prep for the derby and show up in the BC yearly.

So yes you made a good point, but it isn't a valid reason why she didn't run in the BC.

[Cannon Shell]

Best Performance By A Mare On Carpet Fibers----handed out by Pollard's Vision disciple Stewart Scott.
Nice!

[Antitrust32]

I want to re-address this point.

Yes you made a good valid point Phil, however I think it's also worth mentioning these 2 races didn't take a whole lot out of her, this was a reason what many of her backers brought up when they reference she had a long year so it was perfectly alright stopping on Sept 5, if this is the case then what about the other horses that run and prep for the derby and show up in the BC yearly.

So yes you made a good point, but it isn't a valid reason why she didn't run in the BC.

not sure why you cant process this thought so we'll say it for the one millionth time

The VALID reason.. and the reason since about May 7th when Jess Jackson bought her... that she didnt run in the Breeders Cup.. is that her owner said she would not run on artificial surfaces.

Why you cant understand that valid reason is beyond me.. especially since its been in the news for like 6 months now.

It would be one thing if Rachel was pointing to the BC the whole time and skipped a few days before because she didnt want to run against Z.

BUT EVER SINCE SHE WAS BOUGHT BY JJ SHE WAS NOT GOING TO RUN IN THE BREEDERS CUP!

there's your valid reason already! and its perfectly valid! look at how the dirt horses did in the BC!

:zz:

[Cannon Shell]

Rachael Alexandra certainly had a better overall campaign than Zenyatta. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think otherwise. Beyer numbers, who would beat who, who ducked or didnt duck and the other nonsense aside, the argument should be who had the more impressive body of work in 2009 when you take a step back and look again.

You can make the case that Zenyatta's top 'moment' was slightly better than Rachaels, it certainly is more timely. But emotion or sentiment shouldn't really be a deciding factor in determining who had the superior 2009.

IMO JJ is the worst kind of hypocrite and perhaps the worlds richest phony but his horse deserves the award because she simply had a better, more complete and certainly more compelling year than Zenyatta did.

I believe circumstances have made RA's light shine a little brighter than perhaps it should have but I can't get over the fact that Zenyatta's races just weren't that good prior to her BC run. Plus my contention that this was the worst BC Classic field in it's history makes RA a clear winner.

[freddymo]

Rachael Alexandra certainly had a better overall campaign than Zenyatta. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think otherwise. Beyer numbers, who would beat who, who ducked or didnt duck and the other nonsense aside, the argument should be who had the more impressive body of work in 2009 when you take a step back and look again.

You can make the case that Zenyatta's top 'moment' was slightly better than Rachaels, it certainly is more timely. But emotion or sentiment shouldn't really be a deciding factor in determining who had the superior 2009.

IMO JJ is the worst kind of hypocrite and perhaps the worlds richest phony but his horse deserves the award because she simply had a better, more complete and certainly more compelling year than Zenyatta did.

I believe circumstances have made RA's light shine a little brighter than perhaps it should have but I can't get over the fact that Zenyatta's races just weren't that good prior to her BC run. Plus my contention that this was the worst BC Classic field in it's history makes RA a clear winner.

It would have been a nice field for the turf classic

[Coach Pants]

Wow. "That statement" that I made was about as coldly unemotional as it could be. Not sure what alternate universe lexicon or pejorative equates what I wrote with calling someone stupid..But they are and this whole debate is.

[Gander]

not sure why you cant process this thought so we'll say it for the one millionth time

The VALID reason.. and the reason since about May 7th when Jess Jackson bought her... that she didnt run in the Breeders Cup.. is that her owner said she would not run on artificial surfaces.

Why you cant understand that valid reason is beyond me.. especially since its been in the news for like 6 months now.

It would be one thing if Rachel was pointing to the BC the whole time and skipped a few days before because she didnt want to run against Z.

BUT EVER SINCE SHE WAS BOUGHT BY JJ SHE WAS NOT GOING TO RUN IN THE BREEDERS CUP!

there's your valid reason already! and its perfectly valid! look at how the dirt horses did in the BC!

:zz:

Thats true, but there are other races after 9/5 not run on poly and more specifically not BC races. There were plenty of spots she could have run in here in NY, yet they decided to retire her. She looked exhausted after her last race and I commend them for calling it quits and giving her a break. But dont use the poly or BC argument as for why she didnt race. I doubt very much we would have seen her in the BC if it was on dirt here at Belmont or at Churchill.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Justwhistledixie didn't really show up onto the scene until February in the Davona Dale... she started her 2009 campaign on the AQU inner track in a 6F mini-stake.

JWD was the favorite over RA in the future wagering for the KY Oaks.

[Danzig]

As evidenced by the "vote" on this board and many other racing sites, many think this is a close call. There's a difference between having a strong opinion and telling someone else that they reached a different conclusion because they lack the ability to think rationally.


or it could be that many watch four races a year, and are aware that rachel won one of them, and zenyatta another.

[philcski]

JWD was the favorite over RA in the future wagering for the KY Oaks.

Correct... however that pool was in March. Granted, it was only by $1500, but I still don't know why.

[10 pnt move up]

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

"where it was" - Yea when the races are run at Santa Anita they should not count, kinda like when the crew for Mineshaft decided he was just to cool to run at Santa Anita, racing at the place is not worth the trip for you eastern guys, and heck that was on dirt even!!

"who it came against" - cut it any way you want, that was a better field than RA ran againt all year. Her best field was probably the Woodward, and this field drown that one. I guess her race on an off track, not fast dirt mind you but an off track in NJ is a close second.

Also when separating two records for Horse of the Year it should factor in the impact a horse had on a sport, and I think in 20 years unless RA wins the Classic, America's defining race for quality, next year that they will still be talking about Zenyatta and not RA. This takes nothing away from her but fillies winning or competing in triple crown races, well seems to the rage the last few years.

[letswastemoney]

"where it was" - Yea when the races are run at Santa Anita they should not count, kinda like when the crew for Mineshaft decided he was just to cool to run at Santa Anita, racing at the place is not worth the trip for you eastern guys, and heck that was on dirt even!!

"who it came against" - cut it any way you want, that was a better field than RA ran againt all year. Her best field was probably the Woodward, and this field drown that one. I guess her race on an off track, not fast dirt mind you but an off track in NJ is a close second.

Also when separating two records for Horse of the Year it should factor in the impact a horse had on a sport, and I think in 20 years unless RA wins the Classic, America's defining race for quality, next year that they will still be talking about Zenyatta and not RA. This takes nothing away from her but fillies winning or competing in triple crown races, well seems to the rage the last few years.Before you say this years BC Field would drown the horses RA beat

Horses like Gio Ponti and Twice Over and Rip Van Winkle might very well finish up the track on a dirt course for all you or anyone knows, especially Gio Ponti since there has to be a reason why Gio has been kept on grass when dirt racing is more widely available here in the States.

Would you take Macho Again or Gio Ponti in a fairly run dirt race at 10 furlongs? I would take the proven dirt horse.

[hockey2315]

Before you say this years BC Field would drown the horses RA beat

Horses like Gio Ponti and Twice Over and Rip Van Winkle might very well finish up the track on a dirt course for all you or anyone knows, especially Gio Ponti since there has to be a reason why Gio has been kept on grass when dirt racing is more widely available here in the States.

Would you take Macho Again or Gio Ponti in a fairly run dirt race at 10 furlongs? I would take the proven dirt horse.

What's your point?

Last I checked Zenyatta's race wasn't on dirt, so not sure how that's relevant at all.

[letswastemoney]

What's your point?

Last I checked Zenyatta's race wasn't on dirt, so not sure how that's relevant at all.

I just think the fact that Zenyatta won the Classic and therefore "beat better horses" than RA is a weak argument to make because they are difficult to compare to the horses RA defeated.

You might as well consider Gio Ponti for horse of the year if you are going to consider Zenyatta. Synthetics are a separate surface and if we are to treat synthetics in this regard, then you should give consideration to turf horses for HOY as well.

[Antitrust32]

Thats true, but there are other races after 9/5 not run on poly and more specifically not BC races. There were plenty of spots she could have run in here in NY, yet they decided to retire her. She looked exhausted after her last race and I commend them for calling it quits and giving her a break. But dont use the poly or BC argument as for why she didnt race. I doubt very much we would have seen her in the BC if it was on dirt here at Belmont or at Churchill.


I was responding to CSC saying "that wasnt a valid reason for not running in the BC" so yes my post was about the BC.

First off, she's not retired. She will be running in 2010. Big difference! And if she was spent and needed a month or two of eating grass time.. well it takes time to get fit again after that.

I dont blame the connections at all. Her campaign was a tough as anyone's.

[Antitrust32]

"where it was" - Yea when the races are run at Santa Anita they should not count, kinda like when the crew for Mineshaft decided he was just to cool to run at Santa Anita, racing at the place is not worth the trip for you eastern guys, and heck that was on dirt even!!

"who it came against" - cut it any way you want, that was a better field than RA ran againt all year. Her best field was probably the Woodward, and this field drown that one. I guess her race on an off track, not fast dirt mind you but an off track in NJ is a close second.

Also when separating two records for Horse of the Year it should factor in the impact a horse had on a sport, and I think in 20 years unless RA wins the Classic, America's defining race for quality, next year that they will still be talking about Zenyatta and not RA. This takes nothing away from her but fillies winning or competing in triple crown races, well seems to the rage the last few years.


The triple crown races outweigh the Breeders Cup as far as people who watch it. I read the TV ratings were low again for the BC.

Tons more people watched the Preakness I would guess.

[slotdirt]

The triple crown races outweigh the Breeders Cup as far as people who watch it. I read the TV ratings were low again for the BC.

Tons more people watched the Preakness I would guess.

7.9/.9 for the Preakness versus the Breeders Cup Classic. That is, if I understand my Nielsen ratings correctly. It's not even close - a TON more people watch the Triple Crown than do the Breeders Cup, particularly when there is a compelling story involved.

[CSC]

I was responding to CSC saying "that wasnt a valid reason for not running in the BC" so yes my post was about the BC.

First off, she's not retired. She will be running in 2010. Big difference! And if she was spent and needed a month or two of eating grass time.. well it takes time to get fit again after that.

I dont blame the connections at all. Her campaign was a tough as anyone's.

Gander expressed it well so I didn't bother replying last night.

BUT EVER SINCE SHE WAS BOUGHT BY JJ SHE WAS NOT GOING TO RUN IN THE BREEDERS CUP!

Do you believe if she had lost to Macho Again in the Woodward, JJ would have put her on the shelf for the rest of the year with almost 4 months of racing to go? If you do you give him far more credit than I do. Everyone knows what he said, he said the same thing about Curlin a yr earlier before flip flopping, I don't know why you are so sure to believe him now.

[Antitrust32]

Gander expressed it well so I didn't bother replying last night.



Do you believe if she had lost to Macho Again in the Woodward, JJ would have put her on the shelf for the rest of the year with almost 4 months of racing to go? If you do you give him far more credit than I do. Everyone knows what he said, he said the same thing about Curlin a yr earlier before flip flopping, I don't know why you are so sure to believe him now.


I think he realized he made a mistake by going against his gut feeling with Curlin.. and would make sure he didnt do the same thing with Rachel.

The horse ran so hard for 9 months this year.. she deserved a rest.

If he somehow retires her while she is healthy and she doesnt run next year I may change my opinion.

[Gate Dancer]

I think the thing that offends me most about the Zenyatta Classic is that so many people seem to fall into the "this was the best Classic field ever" camp. Zenyatta is a tremendous filly but to think she faced the toughest and deepest Classic field ever is a leap of epic proportions............here's a few names from truly CLASSIC fields:

1984---Wild Again, Gate Dancer, Slew O'Gold, Desert Wine, Precisionist
1985---Proud Truth, Gate Dancer, Turkoman, Chiefs Crown
1987---Ferdinand, Alysheba, Cryptoclearance, Gulch, Afleet
1988---Alysheba, Seeking The Gold, Forty Niner, Cryptoclearance, Personal Flag
1989---Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Cryptoclearance, Blushing John
1991---Black Tie Affair, Twilight Agenda, Unbridled, Strike The Gold, Marquetry
1998---Awesome Again, Silver Charm, Swain, Victory Gallop, Skip Away, Touch Gold

This is not even getting to the fields in the 2000's when Tiznow went back-to-back.

There is no doubt that Zenyatta ran a terrific race and it will always be a "Classic" but let's keep things in perspective.

[rpncaine]

If in fact the synthetic's are going to be around for a while (and I hope not to long) and as the Steve's have said it is a distinct third surface, then why don't the powers that be use this year as start up a "Synthetic HOY" category? Dirt HOY, Turf HOY, Synthetic HOY. Wouldn't this be the perfect time to do that?

[freddymo]

If in fact the synthetic's are going to be around for a while (and I hope not to long) and as the Steve's have said it is a distinct third surface, then why don't the powers that be use this year as start up a "Synthetic HOY" category? Dirt HOY, Turf HOY, Synthetic HOY. Wouldn't this be the perfect time to do that?

Seems like an intelligent place to go.. I would guess that would be admitting that rubber is a third surface or "unconventional turf" That would mitigate the results of former "unconventional dirt or unconventional turf champions" G-d forbid the industry admit they made a mistake

[Travis Stone]

The triple crown races outweigh the Breeders Cup as far as people who watch it. I read the TV ratings were low again for the BC.

Tons more people watched the Preakness I would guess.

Racing on TV starts/stops with the Derby, carries into the Preakness is society likes the winner and will only watch the Belmont if it's a big story (Triple Crown etc.)

The Breeders' Cup is a really tough sell on TV because it lasts all day and there is 30 minutes between races. People who are in the game complain about the angles used and stuff when in reality they should realize those who are fringe fans are more apt to watch/enjoy if they can see some fun angles versus the boring pan shot.

[freddymo]

Racing on TV starts/stops with the Derby, carries into the Preakness is society likes the winner and will only watch the Belmont if it's a big story (Triple Crown etc.)

The Breeders' Cup is a really tough sell on TV because it lasts all day and there is 30 minutes between races. People who are in the game complain about the angles used and stuff when in reality they should realize those who are fringe fans are more apt to watch/enjoy if they can see some fun angles versus the boring pan shot.

Travis if Rachel would have raced against Zenyatta the ratings for that time slot would have been wonderful.

[Travis Stone]

Travis if Rachel would have raced against Zenyatta the ratings for that time slot would have been wonderful.

Probably, but I'm speaking in non-headliner years which this was w/out that match-up.

[slotdirt]

I doubt they would have. People just don't watch horse racing, no matter what the matchup.

[Revidere]

Racing on TV starts/stops with the Derby, carries into the Preakness is society likes the winner and will only watch the Belmont if it's a big story (Triple Crown etc.)

The Breeders' Cup is a really tough sell on TV because it lasts all day and there is 30 minutes between races. People who are in the game complain about the angles used and stuff when in reality they should realize those who are fringe fans are more apt to watch/enjoy if they can see some fun angles versus the boring pan shot.

Or enjoy a really good race call!!!

[10 pnt move up]

Before you say this years BC Field would drown the horses RA beat

Horses like Gio Ponti and Twice Over and Rip Van Winkle might very well finish up the track on a dirt course for all you or anyone knows, especially Gio Ponti since there has to be a reason why Gio has been kept on grass when dirt racing is more widely available here in the States.

Would you take Macho Again or Gio Ponti in a fairly run dirt race at 10 furlongs? I would take the proven dirt horse.

This might be the worst statement I have seen and defies all rational handicapping.

Everyone says that Pro Ride is very friendly to turf horses, in fact Gio Ponti ran well on this very surface.

So if the ability on the turf, grade 1 ability does transfer to pro ride, then we saw two or three legit grade 1 winning talent run their race in the Classic yet they got drown.

How you can talk about what they would have done on dirt when they ran their race on pro ride is beyond me.

[Scurlogue Champ]

I doubt they would have. People just don't watch horse racing, no matter what the matchup.

I concur.

[PeteMugg]

For those wanting some detail to appreciate the nuances of the campaigns...

Zenyatta ran in 5 races this year over 7 months (May 23-Nov 7) over 3 racetracks versus 33 entrants (25 horses)... 4 of which were repeats of races she ran in and won last year (Milady, Vanity, Hirsch, Lady's Secret) and one the Breeders' Cup Classic. She never left California in the 4 races and the Cup happened to be at one of the tracks she frequented most in her career (5/5). Anyway, she won all the races in which she ran, all on synthetic surfaces, and with authority.

Rachel Alexandra ran in 8 races this year over 7 months (Feb 15-Sept 5) over 7 different race tracks versus 50 entrants (47 horses). She demolished her own sex by a cumulative 40 lengths in 5 tries including 2 Oaks (Fair Grounds and Kentucky) and faced 3yo males twice, including in an American classic (Preakness) and in another highly regarded Gr. I (Haskell). She completed her year against older males in the Gr. I Woodward. Her winning a race versus elder males is an accomplishment that hadn't been done in more than 125 years in American racing.


Zenyatta beat these 25 horses in 2009:

---14 females---
Life Is Sweet (3X)
Allicansayiswow (2X)
Gambler's Justice
Champagne Eyes (2X)
Taste's Sis
Briecat (2X)
Dawn After Dawn (2X)
Hot n' Dusty
Modification
Anabaas Creation (2X)
Lethal Heat (2X)
Tidal Dance
Cocoa Beach
Made for Magic
----11 males----
Gio Ponti
Twice Over
Summer Bird
Colonel John
Richard's Kid
Awesome Gem
Regal Ransom
Mine That Bird
Rip Van Winkle
Einstein
Girolamo


Rachel Alexandra beat these 47 horses in 2009:

---23 females---
Afleet Deceit (2X)
Peach Brew
Affirmed Truth
Hello Again
Lake Lugano
My Spanx
Lil' Hottie
Bootprints
Flying Spur (2X)
Our Dahlia
Four Gifts
African Skies
War Tigress
Just Jenda
Bon Jovi Girl
Cats
Stone Legacy
Be Fair
Nan
Gabby's Golden Gal
Tweeter
Malibu Prayer
Flashing
---24 males---
Mine That Bird
Musket Man
Flying Private
Big Drama
Papa Clem (2X)
Terrain
Luv Gov
General Quarters
Friesan Fire
Pioneerof the Nile
Tone It Down
Take the Points
Summer Bird
Munnings
Duke of Mischief
Atomic Rain
Bunker Hill
Macho Again
Bullsbay
Asiatic Boy
It's a Bird
Past the Point
Cool Coal Man
Da' Tara


Call me convinced. But just to be clear, the award is non restrictive and RA and Z each faced all comers only once this year?

That 125 year accomplishment is impressive, but how much more than being the first female to win the Classic? And while interesting, is it more about what racing has become for older males?

[10 pnt move up]

wow, that list of horses RA beat is a who's who of no ones, I guess Macho Again is ok, and Summer Bird is solid, beyond that, MTB?

[NTamm1215]

wow, that list of horses RA beat is a who's who of no ones, I guess Macho Again is ok, and Summer Bird is solid, beyond that, MTB?

7 graded stakes winners among the females and 16 more among the males.

It's not a normal year when you have horses like Macho Again and Bullsbay as legitimate graded stakes horses.

NT

[Cannon Shell]

wow, that list of horses RA beat is a who's who of no ones, I guess Macho Again is ok, and Summer Bird is solid, beyond that, MTB?
Luv Gov

[10 pnt move up]

7 graded stakes winners among the females and 16 more among the males.

It's not a normal year when you have horses like Macho Again and Bullsbay as legitimate graded stakes horses.

NT

who are these great three year old graded stake winners, point them out so I can be on the lookout for them next season?

Summer Bird
????
????

[10 pnt move up]

Luv Gov

one of my favorite horses.

[NTamm1215]

who are these great three year old graded stake winners, point them out so I can be on the lookout for them next season?

Summer Bird
????
????

Did I say she beat any "great graded stakes horses?"

NT

[Danzig]

Did I say she beat any "great graded stakes horses?"

NT


zenyatta didn't exactly face citation this year.

[NTamm1215]

zenyatta didn't exactly face citation this year.

Absolutely. I mean, the whole "who did she beat" argument is weak because when you gain the stature that these two had you can only beat who'll show up against you.

Rather than go the route of pounding the 3YO fillies over and over again, the RA camp went out of their "division" twice and were successful both times. Zenyatta's connections chose to continue to run against the same horses then reach once and assume that win trumps everything else. It just doesn't in my opinion.

NT

[citycat]

OK, so outside of the tired agrument of her running back east exactly what did we want her to do. I will give you that she could have run in the PC but should she have just started running against the boys? Then everyone would be on her for beating "bad" boys in CA.

Everyone has made up their mind and there will be no convincing someone to cross over. We just wait for the Eclipse Awards.

[Danzig]

OK, so outside of the tired agrument of her running back east exactly what did we want her to do. I will give you that she could have run in the PC but should she have just started running against the boys? Then everyone would be on her for beating "bad" boys in CA.

Everyone has made up their mind and there will be no convincing someone to cross over. We just wait for the Eclipse Awards.


zenyatta had one good race all year, where she actually had some decent competition. i just don't understand why that's enough for some.