I Really Wish I Could Have Seen......

[King Glorious]

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

Landaluce as a 3yo.

How the BC Distaff would have turned out had Go for Wand not broken down.

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Manila in the 1987 BC Turf

[Bigsmc]

Secretariat run live.

[Gander]

Funny Cide vs Empire Maker, part 4 in the Travers 03, instead of the worst Travers ever run.

One more rematch between Certifiably Crazy and Dave...7 head to heads werent enough.

Kelly Kip period. He was sheer brilliance.

[RockHardTen1985]

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

Landaluce as a 3yo.

How the BC Distaff would have turned out had Go for Wand not broken down.

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Manila in the 1987 BC Turf

Mineshaft in the Classic.
Point Given in the Classic.
Bernardini mature a month earlier and run in the Derby.
Candy Ride just simply race more.
Barbaro not break down...I think Bernardini ran a 117 so I think he would have beat Barbaro, but that could have been some kind of rival.
Zenyatta vs Rachel in the Woodward, if the race was ran the same, Zenyatta would have beat her.
Commentator stay healthy.
Zenyatta vs The Boys
Rachel vs Icon Project at 1 1/4
Icon Project run in the JCGC

[Indian Charlie]

The great, great, great two year old Swear survive past his two year old season.

[King Glorious]

Red Ransom and Eastern Echo have careers.

[Danzig]

danzig run more than three times.

the bid with a different jock in the belmont.

seattle slew NOT run in the swaps.

[RolloTomasi]

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

2nd San Vicente and San Rafael to Mister Frisky
2nd Blue Grass to Summer Squall
1st Lexington
16th Kentucky Derby
5th King's Bishop to Housebuster
retired

Landaluce as a 3yo.

5th Hollywood Futurity to Roving Boy
1st Las Virgenes
1st Santa Susana
5th Santa Anita Derby
6th Test to Gold Beauty

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

Would have allowed Cryptoclearance to run 3rd in consecutive years instead of Judge Angelucci and Waquoit.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

King Glorious 3rd in a 3-horse field. By 10.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Other than every other starter in the race ran once every two weeks since February, including 2 if not 3 Classics.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Dinard: Funny Cide still would have been the first gelding to win Derby since Clyde Van Dusen.

Event Of The Year: Would have been transfered to Dick Mandella a year sooner after skipping the Illinois Derby (won by the mighty Yarrow Brae) to be an also-ran at CD.

Dehere: Would have reversed form on Tabasco Cat, but not Brocco.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

8th after a brilliant mid-race move.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Easy Goer:

2nd Arlington Match Race w/ Sunday Silence
2nd Woodward to Dispersal
2nd Jockey Club Gold Cup to Flying Continental
2nd NYRA Mile to Quiet American
retired

Sunday Silence:

1st Arlington Match Race w/ Easy Goer
1st Goodwood
3rd BC Classic
retired

Holy Bull:

2nd Donn to Cigar
1st Westchester
1st Met Mile
1st Brooklyn
1st Iselin
1st Whitney
2nd Woodward by a nose
1st NYRA Mile
retired

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Smarty Jones last.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

2nd to Pleasantly Perfect.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Add one length to Life Is Sweet's Hollywood Gold Cup effort.

[RockHardTen1985]

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

2nd San Vicente and San Rafael to Mister Frisky
2nd Blue Grass to Summer Squall
1st Lexington
16th Kentucky Derby
5th King's Bishop to Housebuster
retired

Landaluce as a 3yo.

5th Hollywood Futurity to Roving Boy
1st Las Virgenes
1st Santa Susana
5th Santa Anita Derby
6th Test to Gold Beauty

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

Would have allowed Cryptoclearance to run 3rd in consecutive years instead of Judge Angelucci and Waquoit.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

King Glorious 3rd in a 3-horse field. By 10.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Other than every other starter in the race ran once every two weeks since February, including 2 if not 3 Classics.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Dinard: Funny Cide still would have been the first gelding to win Derby since Clyde Van Dusen.

Event Of The Year: Would have been transfered to Dick Mandella a year sooner after skipping the Illinois Derby (won by the mighty Yarrow Brae) to be an also-ran at CD.

Dehere: Would have reversed form on Tabasco Cat, but not Brocco.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

8th after a brilliant mid-race move.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Easy Goer:

2nd Arlington Match Race w/ Sunday Silence
2nd Woodward to Dispersal
2nd Jockey Club Gold Cup to Flying Continental
2nd NYRA Mile to Quiet American
retired

Sunday Silence:

1st Arlington Match Race w/ Easy Goer
1st Goodwood
3rd BC Classic
retired

Holy Bull:

2nd Donn to Cigar
1st Westchester
1st Met Mile
1st Brooklyn
1st Iselin
1st Whitney
2nd Woodward by a nose
1st NYRA Mile
retired

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Smarty Jones last.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

2nd to Pleasantly Perfect.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Add one length to Life Is Sweet's Hollywood Gold Cup effort.

Would you please do that to my list.

[King Glorious]

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

2nd San Vicente and San Rafael to Mister Frisky
2nd Blue Grass to Summer Squall
1st Lexington
16th Kentucky Derby
5th King's Bishop to Housebuster
retired

Landaluce as a 3yo.

5th Hollywood Futurity to Roving Boy
1st Las Virgenes
1st Santa Susana
5th Santa Anita Derby
6th Test to Gold Beauty

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

Would have allowed Cryptoclearance to run 3rd in consecutive years instead of Judge Angelucci and Waquoit.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

King Glorious 3rd in a 3-horse field. By 10.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Other than every other starter in the race ran once every two weeks since February, including 2 if not 3 Classics.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Dinard: Funny Cide still would have been the first gelding to win Derby since Clyde Van Dusen.

Event Of The Year: Would have been transfered to Dick Mandella a year sooner after skipping the Illinois Derby (won by the mighty Yarrow Brae) to be an also-ran at CD.

Dehere: Would have reversed form on Tabasco Cat, but not Brocco.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

8th after a brilliant mid-race move.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Easy Goer:

2nd Arlington Match Race w/ Sunday Silence
2nd Woodward to Dispersal
2nd Jockey Club Gold Cup to Flying Continental
2nd NYRA Mile to Quiet American
retired

Sunday Silence:

1st Arlington Match Race w/ Easy Goer
1st Goodwood
3rd BC Classic
retired

Holy Bull:

2nd Donn to Cigar
1st Westchester
1st Met Mile
1st Brooklyn
1st Iselin
1st Whitney
2nd Woodward by a nose
1st NYRA Mile
retired

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Smarty Jones last.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

2nd to Pleasantly Perfect.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Add one length to Life Is Sweet's Hollywood Gold Cup effort.

Or.........NONE of the above.

[ddthetide]

Secretariat run live. Agreed!
i'd like to have seen Afleet Alex live too.

[MaTH716]

Agreed with you guys about Big Red, but I just got finished reading Ruffian and never realized how special she was. I wish I could have seen her race too.

[Rudeboyelvis]

danzig run more than three times.

the bid with a different jock in the belmont.

seattle slew NOT run in the swaps.

Greatest avatar of all time, or at least the past 17 years

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.


Isn't it amazing that a horse like that can run a 120 Beyer as a 2yo in the Hollywood Futurity and obliterate 2nd place finisher Farma Way.

And also at Hollywood Park - Favorite Trick gets voted Horse of the Year after obliterating a terrible Canadian horse and a lifelong maiden with a 101 in a year when the handicap division was at its deepest and the 2yo division was markedly below par.

People wonder why I thump hardcore with speed figures when I talk about evaluating top horses from different time periods ... and yet the same speed figures are down quite a ways on factors that determine whom I bet ... look no further than Favorite Trick.

[RolloTomasi]

Mineshaft in the Classic.

Dead heat with Candy Ride for 2nd.

Point Given in the Classic.

Dead heat with Include for 7th.

Bernardini mature a month earlier and run in the Derby.

8th after brilliant mid-race move.

Candy Ride just simply race more.

2nd BC Classic (deadheated w/ Mineshaft)
1st San Pasqual
1st San Antonio
1st Santa Anita Handicap
1st Shoemaker Mile
1st Hollywood Gold Cup
1st Pacific Classic
3rd Woodward
1st Jockey Club Gold Cup
2nd BC Classic

Barbaro not break down...I think Bernardini ran a 117 so I think he would have beat Barbaro, but that could have been some kind of rival.

Scratched at the gate after breaking through. Off 6 months.

2007:
1st Canadian Turf
3rd Maker's Mark
1st Woodford Reserve
3rd Manhattan
1st Iselin
2nd Woodward
3rd Jockey Club Gold Cup
5th BC Classic
retired

Zenyatta vs Rachel in the Woodward, if the race was ran the same, Zenyatta would have beat her.

Sea The Stars by 5.

Commentator stay healthy.

unplaced in 4 straight BC appearances (2 Sprints, 2 Classics).

Icon Project run in the JCGC

Eased. Vanned off. Bowed tendon.

[Danzig]

Greatest avatar of all time, or at least the past 17 years


:D thanks!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Bernardini mature a month earlier and run in the Derby.

8th after brilliant mid-race move.


I don't know man .... that was a mind-bogglingly bad field.

Steppenwolfer ran 3rd and the 2nd place finisher was coming off of a 20+ length drubbing at the hands of Sinister Minister - albeit against a biased track.


Bernardini was too much of a finisher to flatten out against that.

[RolloTomasi]

I don't know man .... that was a mind-bogglingly bad field.

Steppenwolfer ran 3rd and the 2nd place finisher was coming off of a 20+ length drubbing at the hands of Sinister Minister - albeit against a biased track.


Bernardini was too much of a finisher to flatten out against that.

There were too many variables. I presumed he still only had his existing race record (minus the Withers), which put him at a huge disadvantage in terms seasoning.

I suppose if he "matured" earlier, he would have run in at least one significant Derby prep. In that regard, he could have won the Lexington. That would have been enough to get second.

Nonetheless, you love to knock Bluegrass Cat (I don't really blame you) as part of that weak field, but didn't he run a couple decent numbers later on?

[CSC]

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

Landaluce as a 3yo.

How the BC Distaff would have turned out had Go for Wand not broken down.

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Manila in the 1987 BC Turf

Obvious choice, I wish I was at Belmont in 73 to watch Secretariat run.

My not so obvious choice Makybe Diva's third straight Melbourne Cup in 05.

[chucklestheclown]

I wish Barbaro would have completed his 3 year old campaign.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Nonetheless, you love to knock Bluegrass Cat (I don't really blame you) as part of that weak field, but didn't he run a couple decent numbers later on?

He was 2nd to Jazil in the Belmont with a 99, won the Haskell with a 106, and was beaten 7.5 lengths to Bernardini with a 105 in the Travers and that was it.

He was kind of a poor mans Any Given Saturday.

[KirisClown]

Holy Bull:

2nd Donn to Cigar
1st Westchester
1st Met Mile
1st Brooklyn
1st Iselin
1st Whitney
2nd Woodward by a nose
1st NYRA Mile
retired


The Westchester and Brooklyn?? I guess Cigar beats him again by a nose in the Woodward? :confused:

His intended campaign was supposed to be...

Olympic
Donn
Santa Anita Handicap
Met Mile
Iselin
Woodward
BC Classic

[chucklestheclown]

He was 2nd to Jazil in the Belmont with a 99, won the Haskell with a 106, and was beaten 7.5 lengths to Bernardini with a 105 in the Travers and that was it.

He was kind of a poor mans Any Given Saturday.
:zz: :zz: :zz:

[The Indomitable DrugS]

What - you think Bluegrass Cat was a great horse?

Here are the final 6 starts of his career:

* 2nd by 2 to Deputy Glitters in the Tampa Derby

* 4th by 21 lengths to Sinister Minister in the Blue Grass

* 2nd by 6.5 lengths to the slayer of Sharp Humor in the Ky Derby at a mere 30/1 odds in a race where Brother Derek was the ML favorite and Sweetnorthernsaint was post time favorite. Current steeplechase horse Steppenwolfer was 3rd.

* 2nd by 1.25 lengths to Jazil in the Belmont. Jazil still has alw conditions

* 1st by 7 in the Haskell Stakes. Praying For Cash was 2nd. The same Praying For Cash who was last seen running 8th beaten 13 lengths at 23/1 odds in an opt claiming race at DELTA Downs.

* 2nd beaten 7.5 lengths to Bernardini in the Travers.

[Indian Charlie]

Or.........NONE of the above.

I think he was implying with Grand Canyon and Landaluce, that had they not died, they'd have been Lukas'd, like most of his awesome 2yos of the 80s.

Capote, Houston, Ketoh (oh yeah, he died), Althea, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

He was implying Sunday Silence was better than Easy Goer, something I'm not convinced of.

He was saying Java Gold had a soft schedule compared to the rest of the crop.

He obviously had no appreciation for King Glorious (the horse), as yeah, he is certainly one of those overlooked horses in history that most people did not appreciate.

I don't know what he was thinking with Dinard. That horse was a near certainty to win his derby. EOTY I agree with him, sorta. I doubt he could have beaten that field.

I'm with you on Arazi too. What a waste. I always felt that that ******* trainer sabotaged him to prove his point.

The last bits of his post I thought were good. Except for Candy Ride losing to PP.

Of course, had Grand Canyon and Landaluce not died AND not been Lukas'd, who knows what they could have achieved.

[King Glorious]

How come to be "Lukas'd" doesn't mean to be like:

Tank's Prospect
Winning Colors
Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch
Timber Country
Grindstone
Editor's Note
Charismatic
Commendable
Cat Thief
Serena's Song
Sharp Cat
Lady's Secret
Sacahuista

I mean, he's had a little success with 3yos.

[Indian Charlie]

How come to be "Lukas'd" doesn't mean to be like:

I mean, he's had a little success with 3yos.


Tank's Prospect - won the preakness and DNF'd in the Belmont, never running again.

Winning Colors - Never really the same after the Preakness. Stephens more to blame for that one I guess.

Tabasco Cat - won the preakness and belmont, then closed out his career going 1 for 6.

Thunder Gulch - Didn't make it to the BC of his 3yo year before being done.

Timber Country - Retired after Preakness.

Grindstone - I got a call a few minutes after the derby from a friend saying he was so messed up going into the derby, that immediately after the race the connections knew he was finished.

Editor's Note - After his Super Derby win, ran 11 more times with one win, an alw race. That was his only ITM performance, and 7 of those 11 races were double digit losses.

Charismatic - Broke down in the Belmont.

Commendable - you gotta be kidding me.

Cat Thief - Useful and did get the fluke BCC win. Worst crop in the last twenty years except for the Big Brown crop.

Serena's Song - She stayed good for a long time. Tailed off a bit at the end.

Sharp Cat - Got better with age.

Lady's Secret - Tailed off pretty bad at the end there.

Sacahuista - Nice filly

Most of those you list tailed off real bad, burned out or got hurt.
I also did mention he was more notorious with his 2yos in the 80s.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

For a recent horse ... I would have liked to have seen Zaftig run on dirt again after her Acorn win last year.

In just her 5th lifetime start, Zaftig won the Acorn with a 113 Beyer.

Since they've been published in the DRF in 1990, here are the top 3 all-time fastest winning Beyers in the Acorn.

* 2008: Zaftig (113)
* 1993: Sky Beauty (107)
* 1997: Sharp Cat (103)

At one point - Sky Beauty was 12-for-12 with 7 Grade 1 wins at Belmont Park. She was the queen of Belmont.

Sharp Cat won back-to-back Grade 1's by daylight with Beyers of 112 and 119 at Belmont in her final two starts there.

Zaftig ran exactly 8.5 lengths faster than the average winning Acorn figure... and the Acorn is a very serious race. Winners over that span include Meadow Star, Prospectors Delite, Sky Beauty, Inside Information, Sharp Cat, Jersey Girl, Three Ring, Bird Town, and Round Pond.


Zaftig came back injured .. and made just one more start in her career. She finished 3rd off the layoff in last years synthetic BC Filly and Mare Sprint and got hurt again. It sounded a lot like her decision to run in the BC last year was an owners decision...and she was rushed to it.

[Indian Charlie]

Yeah, no doubt she was the best 3yo filly based in this country last year.

[RolloTomasi]

The Westchester and Brooklyn?? I guess Cigar beats him again by a nose in the Woodward? :confused:

His intended campaign was supposed to be...

Olympic
Donn
Santa Anita Handicap
Met Mile
Iselin
Woodward
BC Classic

Plans change when you get beat. Gotta start from scratch sometimes. No way he was going to Santa Anita to run 10f.

[RockHardTen1985]

What - you think Bluegrass Cat was a great horse?

Here are the final 6 starts of his career:

* 2nd by 2 to Deputy Glitters in the Tampa Derby

* 4th by 21 lengths to Sinister Minister in the Blue Grass

* 2nd by 6.5 lengths to the slayer of Sharp Humor in the Ky Derby at a mere 30/1 odds in a race where Brother Derek was the ML favorite and Sweetnorthernsaint was post time favorite. Current steeplechase horse Steppenwolfer was 3rd.

* 2nd by 1.25 lengths to Jazil in the Belmont. Jazil still has alw conditions

* 1st by 7 in the Haskell Stakes. Praying For Cash was 2nd. The same Praying For Cash who was last seen running 8th beaten 13 lengths at 23/1 odds in an opt claiming race at DELTA Downs.

* 2nd beaten 7.5 lengths to Bernardini in the Travers.



Great, Bluegrass Cat? He was not even good.
Roman Ruler was much much better.

[Sightseek]

what it was like to be at the track when it was the most popular sport in America.

[gamblin4ever]

see Man O War and Citation race.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Sound Big Brown VS sound War Pass.

Sound Quality Road VS sound I Want Revenge

RA VS sound Zaftig, sound Icon Project, Careless Jewel, and Zenyatta at 9fs.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Surprised no one said for Cigar to stay on the dirt after his huge maiden win.

Cigar was from the all-time worst 3yo male crop ever .. had he stayed on dirt after that huge maiden win he'd probably go down as one of the 5 best horses ever. Might have won 26 in a row instead of just 16.

[smuthg]

the bid with a different jock in the belmont.



Smarty with a different jock in the Belmont...

Secretariat run at 4 so there would be no question as to the greatest horse ever.

[PeteMugg]

A.P. Indy in the Derby

[RolloTomasi]

I don't know what he was thinking with Dinard. That horse was a near certainty to win his derby. EOTY I agree with him, sorta. I doubt he could have beaten that field.

Dinard was nowhere near a certainty.

A deserving favorite perhaps, but then again, IIRC, Hansel was running much faster (at least in the Jim Beam). Obviously Hansel bombed on Derby day, but was his best race ultimately better than Dinard's? Quite possibly. What if he showed up on Derby Day?

And what of Best Pal? Yes, Dinard got the better of him in the San Rafael (in Best Pal's 3yo debut off a 3 month layoff) and the Santa Anita Derby. But wasn't that somewhat of a winning profile for several Derby winners that decade? Silver Charm, Real Quiet, and Go For Gin were also only earning placings in their preps before "peaking" on Derby day. And in fact, Best Pal ran a huge race only to be beaten by Strike The Gold, who at the time was in very good form and getting as much press as any of the other principals. His typical Zito decline later on has no relevance here.

Also of note is the results of the Strub series later that year when the roles between Dinard and Best Pal were reversed. Best Pal, in top form, was not threatened in the slightest by Dinard in either the San Fernando (at 9f) or the Strub (at 10f). Obviously, its quite possible Dinard's injury had residual effects that kept him from realizing his full potential, but obviously not enough to keep him from competing in Grade 1 events. Interestingly, both he and old rival Olympio never ran again after chasing Best Pal in the Strub series.

Finally, Dinard worked notoriously poorly leading up to the Derby (6f in 1:18). Was he injured in the work? Probably, but he certainly didn't limp off the track (the injury wasn't detected until 4 or 5 days post-work), so it's still possible he didn't care for the CD surface.

[RockHardTen1985]

Sound Big Brown VS sound War Pass.

Sound Quality Road VS sound I Want Revenge

RA VS sound Zaftig, sound Icon Project, Careless Jewel, and Zenyatta at 9fs.

These are all kind of about distance and surface... Even though War Pass plodded home in The Wood, I think he would beat Big Brown up to 9 furlongs.

Quality Road is serious, I wish they would lay him off till next year. He would be the best handicap horse around, I know its crazy to still think QR is better then Summer Bird, but I do.

I think your overating Zatfig just a tad. Careless Jewel is ok, Zenyatta would have won The Woodward for fun, its a shame she did not come. Sadly enough Icon Project might have been the best of this group and we will never get to see it.

All of my comments are based on dirt races, thats part of why I wish QR would be layed off till a Gulfstream campaign. I really beleive he is as good of a horse we have had in a few years. Summer Bird is a grinder, hes really good as well, but I feel QR if right can be BRILLANT.

[miraja2]

Grand Canyon as a 3yo.

Landaluce as a 3yo.

How the BC Distaff would have turned out had Go for Wand not broken down.

Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics.

King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.

The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses.

Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies.

Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep.

Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons.

Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones.

Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic.

Zenyatta face the boys.

Manila in the 1987 BC Turf
I am pretty sure that he was a lot better off running in races where the next best horse was Music Merci.

[King Glorious]

I am pretty sure that he was a lot better off running in races where the next best horse was Music Merci.

I'm even more sure you are wrong.

[Indian Charlie]

Dinard was nowhere near a certainty.

A deserving favorite perhaps, but then again, IIRC, Hansel was running much faster (at least in the Jim Beam). Obviously Hansel bombed on Derby day, but was his best race ultimately better than Dinard's? Quite possibly. What if he showed up on Derby Day?

And what of Best Pal? Yes, Dinard got the better of him in the San Rafael (in Best Pal's 3yo debut off a 3 month layoff) and the Santa Anita Derby. But wasn't that somewhat of a winning profile for several Derby winners that decade? Silver Charm, Real Quiet, and Go For Gin were also only earning placings in their preps before "peaking" on Derby day. And in fact, Best Pal ran a huge race only to be beaten by Strike The Gold, who at the time was in very good form and getting as much press as any of the other principals. His typical Zito decline later on has no relevance here.

Also of note is the results of the Strub series later that year when the roles between Dinard and Best Pal were reversed. Best Pal, in top form, was not threatened in the slightest by Dinard in either the San Fernando (at 9f) or the Strub (at 10f). Obviously, its quite possible Dinard's injury had residual effects that kept him from realizing his full potential, but obviously not enough to keep him from competing in Grade 1 events. Interestingly, both he and old rival Olympio never ran again after chasing Best Pal in the Strub series.

Finally, Dinard worked notoriously poorly leading up to the Derby (6f in 1:18). Was he injured in the work? Probably, but he certainly didn't limp off the track (the injury wasn't detected until 4 or 5 days post-work), so it's still possible he didn't care for the CD surface.

My recollection was that he bowed sometime after the Santa Anita Derby.

Remember that when him and Best Pal were racing against each other, Best Pal was a far more experienced and seasoned horse. In my eyes, there was a large gap in talent between those two.

And yeah, Dinard was nowhere near the same horse after the injury. It's pretty well established that horses are usually diminished after that injury, which is a testament to how good that horse would have been.

To recap, Dinard didn't even debut until opening day of SA. He won by 5 in 109.3.

Wheeled back in just two weeks in the Los Feliz, he wins by 6 in 135.3 over the VERY nice Olympio and Formal Dinner!

Back a month later, he drops back down to 7f in the San Vicente and loses by a nose to Olympio, while 9 back in third was Scan. Time? 121.2

Three weeks later is the San Rafael. Back again to a mile, he gets a super hard fought win over the vastly underrated Apollo (by a head) with Best Pal also in the photo for third. Eight back to fourth. Time was 135.4. To this day, one of the best races I've ever seen and one of my favorites as well.

Next up is the Santa Anita Derby. Another win over Best Pal in 148 flat, this time by a half length.

At this point, he's got 4 wins and a tough beat second in 5 starts. This horse was the real deal and almost certainly was better than anything in the East that year.

After the injury he made only three starts, all in the Strub series, and that was it. He never won, though he did get a 117 BSF in his last start for running second. That horse was simply great, no ifs ands or buts about it.

By the way, your comparison with horses later that decade is irrelevant. If anything, Dinard was right in the middle of a streak where the Santa Anita Derby winner was seemingly cursed.

After Sunday Silence won in 89:

1990 Mister Frisky. Almost dies during the triple crown from a throat abscess and never regained his winning ways.

1991 Dinard. See above.

1992 AP Indy. Scratched out of the Ky Derby on that very morning.

1993 Personal Hope. Never really heard from ever again.

1994 Brocco. Couldn't overcome Randy Winnick. Did he ever win again?

1995 Larry the Legend. Won the SA Derby and then didn't run again for like 15 months.

1996 was Cavonnier. I know he barely lost the derby, but wasn't he hurt shortly after that?

In that span, I'd say Dinard and Indy were just about as close to locks as you can have in that race, had they not been hurt.

[Indian Charlie]

I think your overating Zatfig just a tad. Careless Jewel is ok, Zenyatta would have won The Woodward for fun, its a shame she did not come. Sadly enough Icon Project might have been the best of this group and we will never get to see it.


No way man. Icon Project would have been destroyed by Zaftig.

The others, well, that's all a tossup to me.

[Gander]

How about this year's Kentucky Derby with Quality Road and I Want Revenge in the field?

Or this year's Travers with Mine that Bird and Rachel Alexandra joining Summer Bird and Quality Road?

[RockHardTen1985]

How about this year's Kentucky Derby with Quality Road and I Want Revenge in the field?

Or this year's Travers with Mine that Bird and Rachel Alexandra joining Summer Bird and Quality Road?

I got one for you... The way the Derby was run, and with those 2 big defections, and with the way Rachel won the Oaks, I dont see how she wouldn't have won the Derby for fun, she would have had a huge lead while MTB was making his move, she would have CRUSHED THEM.
You know Im not the biggest Rachel fan, BUT ITS TRUE. She might have won the Triple Crown... She clearly would have won the first 2 legs, especially with QR and IWR out.

[Ronnie]

This thread started as a really good thread and turning into guys just whining about missing live races. The initial post was a really good concept.

I wish I had seen my dog as a puppy. I got her when she was 2 1/2 and now she is 9 and still beautiful.

[RolloTomasi]

Remember that when him and Best Pal were racing against each other, Best Pal was a far more experienced and seasoned horse. In my eyes, there was a large gap in talent between those two.
At this point, he's got 4 wins and a tough beat second in 5 starts. This horse was the real deal and almost certainly was better than anything in the East that year.

By the way, your comparison with horses later that decade is irrelevant. If anything, Dinard was right in the middle of a streak where the Santa Anita Derby winner was seemingly cursed.

In that span, I'd say Dinard and Indy were just about as close to locks as you can have in that race, had they not been hurt.

You still neglect Hansel who almost certainly ran as fast, if not faster than any of Dinard's races in his track record performance in the Jim Beam.

Further, let's look at strict form with regards to Hansel:

Jim Beam: dusts Apollo by open lengths
Preakness: dusts Best Pal and Olympio by open lengths

That alone is enough to suggest that Hansel would have been a good matchup with Dinard (assuming Dinard was the West's best), and thus negates any suggestion that Dinard was some sort of "lock" in the Derby.

Dinard strained some portion of his suspensory ligament roughly 10 days before the Kentucky Derby (3 weeks since the SA Derby) after breezing 6f in 1:18+ at CD.

As for Best Pal, perhaps more seasoned, but he was making a somewhat belated 3yo debut (March) and had just 2 preps leading to the Derby. You could argue that Dinard had the advantage with all the recent racing (which may have ultimately been his undoing).

As for the SA Derby history, not sure where you going with the curse thing (how would this help your argument that Dinard was a lock in the Derby anyways?), but I was suggesting that Best Pal's runner-up efforts didn't necessarily mean he was not as good as Dinard, but rather a result of "prepping" for a more important contest (which would fall in line with the fact that Best Pal started the season late). Alluding to Silver Charm (who chased Free House), Real Quiet (who chased Artax and Indian Charlie), and Go For Gin (Irgun, Holy Bull) who all ultimately won the Derby was supposed to lend plausability to that scenario.

As for AP Indy, it seems contradictory to suggest he was a lock for the Derby as well, when you defend the thinking that Arazi was somehow cheated out of a Derby win (they both were entered for the '92 edition).

If Arazi was scratched raceday along AP Indy, who would have been more of a lock?

[Indian Charlie]

You still neglect Hansel who almost certainly ran as fast, if not faster than any of Dinard's races in his track record performance in the Jim Beam.

Further, let's look at strict form with regards to Hansel:

Jim Beam: dusts Apollo by open lengths
Preakness: dusts Best Pal and Olympio by open lengths

Do you think that maybe the 9f of the Jim Beam might have been outside Apollo's best range?

How about the 45.3 and 109.3 splits he set? Or that he shipped to a surface that a lot of horses didn't like back then?

Or, maybe coming back in less than four weeks off one of the most gut wrenching performances we've seen out of a sprinter going a mile, that maybe that took something out of him?

Or, how about that Apollo, coming off that Dinard loss, never was the same horse again, winning only one time in those last 17 races of his career? This from a horse with four wins and a head loss to Dinard in his first 6 starts???

Get real man!

As for Hansel's GREAT three year old form going into the derby:

5th by 11 to Fly So Free in the FOY in a blazing fast 144.1

3rd by 5 to FSF again, in the Florida Derby. Strike the Gold second, a super blazing time of 150.2.

Then the 2.5 length win in the Jim Beam in 146.3 for 9f. Nice time, but beat Richman and Wilder Than Ever.

Then the romp in the Lexington. 9 length win over Shotgun Harry J. and Speedy Cure in 142.3.

Hansel did get sharp there, but against badly overmatched opponents and over lightning fast surfaces.

I'll take Dinard please.



As for the SA Derby history, not sure where you going with the curse thing (how would this help your argument that Dinard was a lock in the Derby anyways?), but I was suggesting that Best Pal's runner-up efforts didn't necessarily mean he was not as good as Dinard, but rather a result of "prepping" for a more important contest (which would fall in line with the fact that Best Pal started the season late). Alluding to Silver Charm (who chased Free House), Real Quiet (who chased Artax and Indian Charlie), and Go For Gin (Irgun, Holy Bull) who all ultimately won the Derby was supposed to lend plausability to that scenario.

It really had nothing to do with anything. Just a weird run of bad luck for winners of that race.



As for AP Indy, it seems contradictory to suggest he was a lock for the Derby as well, when you defend the thinking that Arazi was somehow cheated out of a Derby win (they both were entered for the '92 edition).

If Arazi was scratched raceday along AP Indy, who would have been more of a lock?

I followed the Arazi situation very closely. The trainer wanted no part of coming back to Kentucky, there were offhanded rumors that the dirt was unkind to Arazi (I don't really know if I buy into that one) and everyone knew he was going to have just one prep race, against the equivalent of low claimers. He had no hope against AP Indy with these things going against him.

Nobody at all, except for any idiot who bet Arazi, perhaps, was surprised by that outcome.

[miraja2]

In recent times it would have been nice to see Afleet Alex compete post-Belmont. His post-Derby performances hinted that Rose had finally figured him out, and even though he was not exactly facing terrific fields in those two races, I would have liked to see him against Flower Alley and Saint Liam in the fall of that year.

Other than that, I would have liked to have seen a nice long movie instead of the 2007 Pacific Classic, and I would have enjoyed seeing a match race this year between Rachel Alexandra and Pepper's Pride.

[miraja2]

I'm even more sure you are wrong.
I think we have had this discussion about 37 times, but just out of curiosity, at what distance would you have wanted to see your namesake compete with the big boys? Certainly not 10f. They would have destroyed him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

A. P. Indy was the furthest thing in the world from being a lock to win the Kentucky Derby.

It took him 1:49.25 to win the Santa Anita Derby. On the same exact day and at the same distance, New York reject Another Review won the San Bernadino in 1:47.33 seconds.

People will point to the '92 Santa Anita Derby and call it a great race .. because the eventual Horse of the Year won, 2nd place finisher Bertrando would eventually become a champion older male, and 3rd place finisher Casual Lies would finish underneath in triple crown races.

However, A. P. Indy was scratched out of his next start. Bertrando didn't run again for almost 9 months after the race. And Casual Lies is your typical grinding bridesmaid.. he only won a single race after the SA Derby, and it was at Golden Gate more than a year later.

The '92 SA Derby may have great names attatched to it... but it was a painfully slow race with a couple of fine horses who battled physical issues beating a bridesmaid in dismal time.

[Indian Charlie]

A. P. Indy was the furthest thing in the world from being a lock to win the Kentucky Derby.

It took him 1:49.25 to win the Santa Anita Derby. On the same exact day and at the same distance, New York reject Another Review won the San Bernadino in 1:47.33 seconds.

People will point to the '92 Santa Anita Derby and call it a great race .. because the eventual Horse of the Year won, 2nd place finisher Bertrando would eventually become a champion older male, and 3rd place finisher Casual Lies would finish underneath in triple crown races.

However, A. P. Indy was scratched out of his next start. Bertrando didn't run again for almost 9 months after the race. And Casual Lies is your typical grinding bridesmaid.. he only won a single race after the SA Derby, and it was at Golden Gate more than a year later.

The '92 SA Derby may have great names attatched to it... but it was a painfully slow race with a couple of fine horses who battled physical issues beating a bridesmaid in dismal time.

Great.

Except AP Indy somehow managed to win the Peter Pan and the Belmont with your beloved figures 13 and 16 points higher than his 'slow' SA Derby win.

Which leads to what I've told you over and over. AP Indy was not a flashy runner and did what was necessary to win. His Peter Pan win was his largest margin of victory, but he was facing crap there.

Also, Indy, being trained by a conservative trainer, was highly unlikely to have been at peak fitness for the SA Derby.

Have you ever even seen that race??

[Indian Charlie]

And tell me you aren't dumb enough to actually believe Lil E. Tee was better than Indy. That field for the derby was watered down, and you know it.

[RolloTomasi]

Or, how about that Apollo, coming off that Dinard loss, never was the same horse again, winning only one time in those last 17 races of his career? This from a horse with four wins and a head loss to Dinard in his first 6 starts???

Get real man!

For those keeping it real, Apollo was for the most part facing Cal-breds prior to his Herculean tussle with Dinard.

And, yes, Apollo would have been a monster had Dinard not ripped his heart out (by a head) in the San Rafael. See the '90 California Breeder's Championship for further evidence.

As for Hansel's GREAT three year old form going into the derby:

5th by 11 to Fly So Free in the FOY in a blazing fast 144.1

3rd by 5 to FSF again, in the Florida Derby. Strike the Gold second, a super blazing time of 150.2.

Then the 2.5 length win in the Jim Beam in 146.3 for 9f. Nice time, but beat Richman and Wilder Than Ever.

Then the romp in the Lexington. 9 length win over Shotgun Harry J. and Speedy Cure in 142.3.

Hansel did get sharp there, but against badly overmatched opponents and over lightning fast surfaces.

I'll take Dinard please.

So much for allowing horses like Hansel and Best Pal to race into peak form. No matter what you do later in the year, those losses in the prep races really come back to haunt you.

Just to come back to reality, recall that Hansel ended up a dual classic winner and Eclipse Champion while Best Pal won about a trillion dollars.

I guess we don't need to tackle the Preakness, where both of Dinard's archrivals in CA, Olympio and Best Pal couldn't get within 10 lengths of Hansel.

I followed the Arazi situation very closely. The trainer wanted no part of coming back to Kentucky, there were offhanded rumors that the dirt was unkind to Arazi (I don't really know if I buy into that one) and everyone knew he was going to have just one prep race, against the equivalent of low claimers. He had no hope against AP Indy with these things going against him.

The Prix Omnium II is a listed prep for the French 2000 Guineas. In recent years, Arlington Million winner Spirit One, multiple Group 1 winner American Post, Del Mar Derby winner Blackdoun, Champion winner Literato have come out of the race. The year after Arazi, future Queen Elizabeth winner Bigstone won it.

The claimers that Arazi handled that day, Supermec and River Majesty later came to the States and won or placed in stakes. River Majesty was multiple Group 1 placed to horses like Paradise Creek, Kiris Clown, and Solar Splendor.

If pedigree is any indication, Arazi was cut out to be a miler. His 3/4 brother by Rahy (a son of Arazi's sire, the good miler Blushing Groom), Noverre excelled at a mile. His second dam also produced middle distance turf horse, Joyeux Danseur.

Perhaps, like Apollo in the Jim Beam, he was simply out of his range. Of course, he never ran into Dinard prior to the Derby.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

And tell me you aren't dumb enough to actually believe Lil E. Tee was better than Indy.

Going into the Kentucky Derby?

Absolutely. He ran a 106 and 107 in his final two fast track prep races. A. P. Indy ran a 100 and a 95 in his.

Not only did Lil E Tee own a figure edge between 4-to-7 lengths over A. P. Indy .. but he also owned a seasoning edge .. having made 4 prior starts in 3 preps to just 2 starts for Ap Indy.

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/87/l_bf42afc868e44adebe4d9d28030afcf1.jpg

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/3/l_cb49ce318bbe4c0aadfb5fe3076de92e.jpg


Just because Lil E. Tee was coming into the Derby as a better horse than A. P. Indy ... doesn't mean he was a better horse.

A. P. Indy possibly had an issue bothering him in his preps - and with time to recover - he ran to the level of Lil E Tee. Lil E Tee obviously had his physical issues after the Preakness. He didn't race again at age 3 and only made 3 more starts.

It's unfair and insane to compare the two based on what they've done as sires. Lil E. Tee is an obscurely bred type who was bought from a 2yo in training sale for just 25K. A. P. Indy is a royally bred type who sold for a staggering $2,900,000 as a yearling.

[CSC]

He( Lil E. Tee ) wasn't the greatest Derby winner ever, but I do recommend reading his story in the book Derby Champions.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The guy who trained Lil E Tee as a 2yo was stabled next to my father when my father trained horses.

They bought him up after he won a MSW race at Calder by 11.5 lengths.

[CSC]

Lynn Whiting didn't train him as a 2 yr old? I thought his story was a great lesson of good things happen to those who perservere and never give up. The colt could very easily died and no one would have heard of him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Mike Trivigno trained him at Calder... he was purchased after a big maiden win.

I think Whiting had him near the end of his 2yo season... maybe for a race or two.

[chucklestheclown]

Great, Bluegrass Cat? He was not even good.
Roman Ruler was much much better.
:wf

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Bluegrass Cat VS Rockport Harbor

Giacomo VS Mine That Bird

Colonel John VS Sea Hero

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Jazil VS D' Tara

[miraja2]

Denis of Cork vs. Steppenwolfer

(Winner advances to face Andromeda's Hero)

[Indian Charlie]

So much for allowing horses like Hansel and Best Pal to race into peak form. No matter what you do later in the year, those losses in the prep races really come back to haunt you.

Just to come back to reality, recall that Hansel ended up a dual classic winner and Eclipse Champion while Best Pal won about a trillion dollars.

I guess we don't need to tackle the Preakness, where both of Dinard's archrivals in CA, Olympio and Best Pal couldn't get within 10 lengths of Hansel.

Wait. Weren't we talking about how Hansel and Dinard were running leading up to the derby, and why Dinard wasn't the lock I thought he was? I'm not sure what your points have to do with the original purpose of our comparisons. I certainly don't.

By the way, were you aware that Hansel ran in the Kentucky Derby and ran fifth by over 10 lengths? Do you think that if a healthy Dinard had run in the derby, that Hansel would have picked it up and ran better?


The Prix Omnium II is a listed prep for the French 2000 Guineas. In recent years, Arlington Million winner Spirit One, multiple Group 1 winner American Post, Del Mar Derby winner Blackdoun, Champion winner Literato have come out of the race. The year after Arazi, future Queen Elizabeth winner Bigstone won it.

The claimers that Arazi handled that day, Supermec and River Majesty later came to the States and won or placed in stakes. River Majesty was multiple Group 1 placed to horses like Paradise Creek, Kiris Clown, and Solar Splendor.

At the time that race was run, most of the Euro commentators of the day stated that field was terrible. Arazi galloped and could have won by about 40.


If pedigree is any indication, Arazi was cut out to be a miler. His 3/4 brother by Rahy (a son of Arazi's sire, the good miler Blushing Groom), Noverre excelled at a mile. His second dam also produced middle distance turf horse, Joyeux Danseur.

Perhaps, like Apollo in the Jim Beam, he was simply out of his range. Of course, he never ran into Dinard prior to the Derby.

A healthy and fit Arazi, yeah, that might have been a different story in his derby.

[Indian Charlie]

Going into the Kentucky Derby?

Absolutely. He ran a 106 and 107 in his final two fast track prep races. A. P. Indy ran a 100 and a 95 in his.

Not only did Lil E Tee own a figure edge between 4-to-7 lengths over A. P. Indy .. but he also owned a seasoning edge .. having made 4 prior starts in 3 preps to just 2 starts for Ap Indy.

Taking into consideration that Indy was likely not peaking at the SA Derby, combined with a retardedly low figure for that race (what, no split variant?), I think it's safe to take the Peter Pan as a more realistic expectation of what Indy was going to do in his next start (which was his next start!), the Ky. Derby. If you take that approach, their preps were really not far apart at all, and again, that 95 BSF is moronic.


Just because Lil E. Tee was coming into the Derby as a better horse than A. P. Indy ... doesn't mean he was a better horse

A. P. Indy possibly had an issue bothering him in his preps - and with time to recover - he ran to the level of Lil E Tee. Lil E Tee obviously had his physical issues after the Preakness. He didn't race again at age 3 and only made 3 more starts.

It's unfair and insane to compare the two based on what they've done as sires. Lil E. Tee is an obscurely bred type who was bought from a 2yo in training sale for just 25K. A. P. Indy is a royally bred type who sold for a staggering $2,900,000 as a yearling.

Who compared them as stallions?

I've got another question for you. Say for the moment that I agree with everything you are saying here. Say also AP Indy does indeed run in the race. Does Lil E. Tee go off favored over Indy? I'm going to guess that almost everyone, besides you, would realize that 95 figure is bullshid and that Indy would have gone off as the strong favorite. What's your thought on that?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I'm going to guess that almost everyone, besides you, would realize that 95 figure is bullshid and that Indy would have gone off as the strong favorite. What's your thought on that?

How exactly was that 95 figure BS?

The race went 2 full seconds slower than Another Review's race the same day.

Why would they split the variant? Was there some extreme weather conditions that day ... or was it just a case of the Santa Anita track superintendant trying to slow the track down as much as possible before the race - and trying to speed it up to normal after the race - in hopes of fooling the figure makers?

Bottom line ... the winner of that race was scratched from his next start because of a physical issue. The 2nd place finisher and 3rd place finisher both didn't win a single race the rest of the year.

Maybe Another Review should have got a 124 and A P Indy a 105?

[RockHardTen1985]

Bluegrass Cat VS Rockport Harbor

Giacomo VS Mine That Bird

Colonel John VS Sea Hero

Rockport when healthy

Giacomo

Sea Hero

[RockHardTen1985]

Jazil VS D' Tara

This one is actually easy...

D'TARA

[RolloTomasi]

Wait. Weren't we talking about how Hansel and Dinard were running leading up to the derby, and why Dinard wasn't the lock I thought he was? I'm not sure what your points have to do with the original purpose of our comparisons. I certainly don't.

Well your other contention was that Dinard was lengths better than both Best Pal and Hansel (thus he was a lock). That almost certainly was not the case.

By the way, were you aware that Hansel ran in the Kentucky Derby and ran fifth by over 10 lengths? Do you think that if a healthy Dinard had run in the derby, that Hansel would have picked it up and ran better?

Actually, Hansel ran 10th as the favorite. Considering both his final prep efforts and subsequent classic runs, isn't that effort a bit of an anomaly?

And yet I'm sure Dinard couldn't possibly have thrown in a clunker (if he could actually make it to the starting gate), even though reports were that he was training poorly over the CD surface.

[RolloTomasi]

i did see Onion beat Secretariat.

Did you cry?

[King Glorious]

I think we have had this discussion about 37 times, but just out of curiosity, at what distance would you have wanted to see your namesake compete with the big boys? Certainly not 10f. They would have destroyed him.

8f. Even up to 9f. I think beyond that, they start to even out. Depending on who else was in the race and how the pace played out, they might never catch KG going 10f. But at 8f, I don't think they'd have a chance of catching him.

[Indian Charlie]

How exactly was that 95 figure BS?

The race went 2 full seconds slower than Another Review's race the same day.

Why would they split the variant? Was there some extreme weather conditions that day ... or was it just a case of the Santa Anita track superintendant trying to slow the track down as much as possible before the race - and trying to speed it up to normal after the race - in hopes of fooling the figure makers?

Bottom line ... the winner of that race was scratched from his next start because of a physical issue. The 2nd place finisher and 3rd place finisher both didn't win a single race the rest of the year.

Maybe Another Review should have got a 124 and A P Indy a 105?

Track supers do weird things. Figure makers do exactly what you describe all the time. When they get a puzzling result, they love splitting variants.

If you watch that race and thought, hmm, those horses are only about a 95 BSF quality type, then clearly your judgment is impaired. That was a terrific race, by terrific horses, and that figure was no way indicative of how good that race was.

You really should know by now that figures are often misleading, if not outright wrong.

[Indian Charlie]

How exactly was that 95 figure BS?

The race went 2 full seconds slower than Another Review's race the same day.

Why would they split the variant? Was there some extreme weather conditions that day ... or was it just a case of the Santa Anita track superintendant trying to slow the track down as much as possible before the race - and trying to speed it up to normal after the race - in hopes of fooling the figure makers?

Bottom line ... the winner of that race was scratched from his next start because of a physical issue. The 2nd place finisher and 3rd place finisher both didn't win a single race the rest of the year.

Maybe Another Review should have got a 124 and A P Indy a 105?

Oh, and you neglected to answer my question about favoritism in the derby that year. Do you think Lil E. Tee was going to go off at lower odds than Indy?

If not, why? Just cause Indy had the expensive price tag and the fancy pedigree?

Maybe because people might have realized who was really the better horse, ridiculous figures or not?

[Indian Charlie]

Well your other contention was that Dinard was lengths better than both Best Pal and Hansel (thus he was a lock). That almost certainly was not the case.

Watching him progress through his races, he was a horse to me that was already really good and had a ton more upside to him. So, to my eyes, he was already better than Hansel and/or Best Pal and I fully expected him to keep getting better.



Actually, Hansel ran 10th as the favorite. Considering both his final prep efforts and subsequent classic runs, isn't that effort a bit of an anomaly?

Sorry there, my mistake. I don't know why I thought he was fifth. I was probably overrating him??

I think his final two preps were really nice, but if there was an anomaly in his race record, those two races were it. As for his two classic wins, the Preakness was his shining moment, but Corporate Report and Mane Minister weren't much.


And yet I'm sure Dinard couldn't possibly have thrown in a clunker (if he could actually make it to the starting gate), even though reports were that he was training poorly over the CD surface.

He never threw in a clunker.

As for those reports of him training poorly over the CD surface, I think that was entirely likely a result of his injury.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Track supers do weird things. Figure makers do exactly what you describe all the time. When they get a puzzling result, they love splitting variants.

Facepalm.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Oh, and you neglected to answer my question about favoritism in the derby that year. Do you think Lil E. Tee was going to go off at lower odds than Indy?

If not, why? Just cause Indy had the expensive price tag and the fancy pedigree?

Maybe because people might have realized who was really the better horse, ridiculous figures or not?

Of course Lil E Tee would have been a bigger price ... he finished closely behind eventual Preakness winner Pine Bluff twice at Oaklawn.

Horses don't get bet in that race solely on the basis of big recent figs. I think both Charismatic and War Emblem had the fields highest last out figure going into the Derby ... and both were huge prices.

Variant splits are normally the result of extreme wind and weather. Again - the race was in early April - the winner was scratched out of his next race .. and the 2nd and 3rd place finishers didn't win a single race the rest of the year.

[Indian Charlie]

Facepalm.

Whatever man.

Back then, it was not uncommon at all to see a lower level horse run a faster time than a stakes race on the same card and have the stakes race come back faster. Sometimes much faster.

At some point in the last five to ten years, some bright individual figured out that that makes them look kinda stupid.

[RolloTomasi]

I think his final two preps were really nice, but if there was an anomaly in his race record, those two races were it. As for his two classic wins, the Preakness was his shining moment, but Corporate Report and Mane Minister weren't much.

You mean Travers winner Corporate Report? And again, let's ignore Best Pal and Olympio because they didn't actually hit the board so it was if they weren't even there.

Neither Olympio nor Best Pal had a viable excuse for getting lit up by Hansel in the Preakness. Both didn't miss anytime following their defeats and in fact finished the last half of the year strongly.

While one would have to concede off the winter Santa Anita races that Dinard held a slight edge over those two, it certainly wasn't anywhere near the tune of 10 lengths.

He never threw in a clunker.

As for those reports of him training poorly over the CD surface, I think that was entirely likely a result of his injury.

He also never ran anywhere outside of SA.

[CSC]

Dance Smartly vs. Black Tie Affair in the 91 Classic.

BTW I thought her BC Distaff was her second worst race of the year to the Prince of Wales at Fort Erie.

[miraja2]

at 8f, I don't think they'd have a chance of catching him.
Not a chance? Have you watched Easy Goer's 8f effort in the Gotham recently? I would argue that was a better race than KG ever ran at any distance.
At 8f, KG would have a shot, but at 9f+ I'd give him little or no chance.

[King Glorious]

Not a chance? Have you watched Easy Goer's 8f effort in the Gotham recently? I would argue that was a better race than KG ever ran at any distance.
At 8f, KG would have a shot, but at 9f+ I'd give him little or no chance.

I watched it the day he ran it. Fast tracks and conditions lead to strange results. I know Aqueduct is often a very fast track during those big racing days in the early spring. I also saw him run a very good mile in the Champagne as a 2yo. I also saw him in the Met Mile as a 4yo. I think there are some horses that run extremely well when allowed to do just what they want to do. At 8f, I think EG's rider would be forced to make a decision to run with him early (and I don't think he could) or let him go and hope he came back to him (and I don't think he would). It's a huge difference between third rate speed and first rate speed. KG was first rate.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

At some point in the last five to ten years, some bright individual figured out that that makes them look kinda stupid.

You made a mistake ... and Rollo Tomasi stole your candy and went five hole on your goalie.

It happens. I've been dunked on by Rollo before.

But instead of just brushing it off and moving along... you pulled the goalie and came with the throw as much crap at the wall and hopefully something sticks offense.

It didn't work ... and now I have an empty net to shoot at.

Here's a recap of April 4th '92 at Santa Anita:

Race #1: Turf
Race #2: 32K older male claimers went 8.5fs in 1:42.76
Race #3: Turf
Race #4: N1X alw race for fillies went 6fs in 1:09.75
Race #5: Santa Anita Derby went 9fs in 1:49.25
Race #6: a MSW race at 6.5fs went in 1:16.01
Race #7: Turf
Race #8: San Bernardino went 9fs in 1:47.33
Race #9: a MSW race at 6.5fs went in 1:16.56


You're claiming that a variant should have been split. Well, at what point in the card exactly?

32K older male claimers ran a 95 Beyer in race 2 - A. P. Indy ran a 95 Beyer in race 5 - and Another Review ran a 114 in Race #8.

You're basically arguing that the track was very fast for the first two dirt races ... and someone slowed the speed of the track down markedly for the Santa Anita Derby ... but just minutes after the SA Derby... the track had magically returned to the same speed it was just minutes before the SA Derby.

The only rational thing you could have attempted to argue is that a timer malfunction occured.

I've already discussed how the winner was scratched from his next race - and the 2nd and 3rd place horses didn't win a single race the rest of the year ... but here's a recap of the rest of that field:

4th place finisher Hickman Creek - came out of the race with an injury and was sidelined the rest of the year. Failed in his next 5 starts - all at the N2X alw level.

5th place finisher Fax News - was soundly beaten in each of his next 7 starts

6th place finisher Solid Turth - made his next start in a 50K claimer and finished 7th

7th place finisher Proud Memories - Was beaten 16 lengths in a MSW race his start before the SA Derby - was beaten 15 lengths in the SA Derby - and was 9th beaten 10 lengths at the MSW race level his start after the SA Derby.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Dance Smartly vs. Black Tie Affair in the 91 Classic.

BTW I thought her BC Distaff was her second worst race of the year to the Prince of Wales at Fort Erie.

She would have been thumped soundly by BTA.... but Inside Information probably would have beaten Cigar had she run in the '95 Classic.

[RolloTomasi]

At 8f, I think EG's rider would be forced to make a decision to run with him early (and I don't think he could) or let him go and hope he came back to him (and I don't think he would). It's a huge difference between third rate speed and first rate speed. KG was first rate.

King Glorious was at his very limit going 8f. His stretch runs for the Hollywood Futurity, Ohio Derby, and Haskell were some of the ugliest this side of Medallist. In two of those races, he defeated Music Merci handily, despite the fact that the latter had dead aim on him at the top of the stretch. Coupled with the fact that KG either switched leads inappropriately or failed to switch altogether (not to mention drift out badly) in those races, you certainly couldn't be faulted for suggestioning KG had his fair share of "heart". However, it should be noted that Music Merci, like KG, was distance challenged, notoriously hanging down the lane after big turn moves (see the BC Juvenile for another example) in his route races. Sure enough, later in his career, Music Merci was a top class sprinter.

As for Easy Goer, he was a bit handier than you care to admit. Recall he blitzed them in the Swale going 7f in a quick time. As far as the cheap speed he was facing, certainly Is It True was a classy horse who defeated the same horses King Glorious made his name beating at both 2 and 3 (Music Merci, Roi Danzig). Though not top class, it should be noted that the speed horses EG chased in both the Gotham and Swale (Diamond Donnie and Trion) had run the rest of the field enough off their feet to hold the place spots.

Not sure what the implication was when alluding to the '90 Met Mile, but it being his penultimate start along with the reported ankle troubles throughout his career that were soon to end it, is enough to suggest that he was perhaps not at his best physically at that point. Its unfair to take that race at face value if at the same time we forgive King Glorious for failing to have constitution enough to race beyond July of his 3yo year.

[DogsUp]

I would have liked to have been at the 1958 Santa Anita Derby with $100 to win on Silky Sullivan. Could you imagine the feeling when SS dropped 28 lengths behind.

[King Glorious]

King Glorious was at his very limit going 8f. His stretch runs for the Hollywood Futurity, Ohio Derby, and Haskell were some of the ugliest this side of Medallist. In two of those races, he defeated Music Merci handily, despite the fact that the latter had dead aim on him at the top of the stretch. Coupled with the fact that KG either switched leads inappropriately or failed to switch altogether (not to mention drift out badly) in those races, you certainly couldn't be faulted for suggestioning KG had his fair share of "heart". However, it should be noted that Music Merci, like KG, was distance challenged, notoriously hanging down the lane after big turn moves (see the BC Juvenile for another example) in his route races. Sure enough, later in his career, Music Merci was a top class sprinter.

As for Easy Goer, he was a bit handier than you care to admit. Recall he blitzed them in the Swale going 7f in a quick time. As far as the cheap speed he was facing, certainly Is It True was a classy horse who defeated the same horses King Glorious made his name beating at both 2 and 3 (Music Merci, Roi Danzig). Though not top class, it should be noted that the speed horses EG chased in both the Gotham and Swale (Diamond Donnie and Trion) had run the rest of the field enough off their feet to hold the place spots.

Not sure what the implication was when alluding to the '90 Met Mile, but it being his penultimate start along with the reported ankle troubles throughout his career that were soon to end it, is enough to suggest that he was perhaps not at his best physically at that point. Its unfair to take that race at face value if at the same time we forgive King Glorious for failing to have constitution enough to race beyond July of his 3yo year.

I don't count being sold and sent to another country not having constitution but everyone has differing opinions. I don't see a horse that has runaway wins at 9f, including one of the premier races in the country for 3yos as having been at their absolute limit at 8f. That doesn't make sense to me. I would agree if you said 9f wasn't his best distance though. I do recall Easy Goer winning the Swale in his 3yo debut. I was there. I know EG is one of the most talented horses of the past quarter century and I believe he probably had the ability to be a top sprinter if they had so chosen for him to be. But I was also there when King Glorious scorched Hollywood in 1:21 1/5 off a 3 1/2 month layoff, which DRF reported at the time equalled the second fastest time ever for a 2yo. I was also there when KG ran 1:08 4/5 in the Hollywood Juvenile. I don't think Easy Goer had the speed to run with KG up to 8f and would need KG to be softened up some to catch him at 9f. I agree with Gary Stevens, who said that had a healthy KG been there for the SA Derby, Sunday Silence wouldn't have been favored. I agree with Chris McCarron, who rode both KG and Sunday Silence, when he says that up to 8f, SS and EG wouldn't know what hit them. Maybe we are all wrong. We'll never know.

[Indian Charlie]

You mean Travers winner Corporate Report? And again, let's ignore Best Pal and Olympio because they didn't actually hit the board so it was if they weren't even there.

Neither Olympio nor Best Pal had a viable excuse for getting lit up by Hansel in the Preakness. Both didn't miss anytime following their defeats and in fact finished the last half of the year strongly.

While one would have to concede off the winter Santa Anita races that Dinard held a slight edge over those two, it certainly wasn't anywhere near the tune of 10 lengths.



He also never ran anywhere outside of SA.

Yeah, that Corporate Report. He won the Travers, yes. Whooopdee freakin doo.

You keep bringing up Best Pal. How well, exactly, did he do outside of California? Wasn't he one of those California superstars that did even better outside of California, or am I confusing him with Lava Man?

Olympio was a solid race horse, and on his best day pretty damn good. I really don't know how to place him in the context of this thread.

[brianwspencer]

I would have liked to have been at the 1958 Santa Anita Derby with $100 to win on Silky Sullivan. Could you imagine the feeling when SS dropped 28 lengths behind.

Freefourtinternet's Hawthorne Gold Cup was pretty similarly legendary....though running down the heartless Perfect Drift hardly makes him a legend.

I gotta try to find video of that race sometime....

[RolloTomasi]

I don't count being sold and sent to another country not having constitution but everyone has differing opinions.

King Glorious reportedly had physical issues throughout his career, specifically with his knees (the reason why he missed the Triple Crown). Given the way he tended to finish up his races, plus the fact that he was allegedly pointed for 4 big races, one after he defected from the other, namely the Travers, Iselin, Molson Million, and Super Derby, its not hard to presume that some sort of physical issue ended his career. His sale to the JRA was announced in October, after all four of those races had been run.

I don't see a horse that has runaway wins at 9f, including one of the premier races in the country for 3yos as having been at their absolute limit at 8f. That doesn't make sense to me.

I think we've all well established that the Haskell field year was anything but "premier".

I agree with Gary Stevens, who said that had a healthy KG been there for the SA Derby, Sunday Silence wouldn't have been favored.

Sunday Silence wasn't favored anyway. Another sprinter/miler type like KG, Houston , was.

I agree with Chris McCarron, who rode both KG and Sunday Silence, when he says that up to 8f, SS and EG wouldn't know what hit them

Well, while you put all your stock in what the jockey's say, I'll stick with the journalists, like Steven Crist, who wrote after the Haskell (echoed by several other turf writers):

King Glorious was good enough to hold on for a three-length victory in the $500,000 Haskell Handicap today at Monmouth Park, but left the impression that stronger opposition and longer distances may give him serious trouble.

The California-based front-runner ran his career record to 8 for 9 today and became the sport's newest millionaire. But his slow final furlong and final time, as he shortened stride badly through the stretch, suggested he would have difficulty handling Easy Goer and Sunday Silence, the nation's top 3-year-olds.

[RolloTomasi]

Yeah, that Corporate Report. He won the Travers, yes. Whooopdee freakin doo.

Yeah. It was a pretty crappy Travers. In defeat was the Preakness/Belmont winner, Florida Derby/2yo champion, Kentucky Derby/Blue Grass winner, and the Haskell/Dwyer/Peter Pan winner.

To be fair, Corporate report was bested by Best Pal in the Swaps in CA, and Olympio beat him in the Arkansas Derby (though CR was making maybe his 3rd career start). So I guess that means Dinard was a lock for the Travers, too.

You keep bringing up Best Pal. How well, exactly, did he do outside of California? Wasn't he one of those California superstars that did even better outside of California, or am I confusing him with Lava Man?

You mean the Best Pal who won the Oaklawn Handicap and was runner-up in the Kentucky Derby? Please spare me the 6- and 7-year old out-of-state runs.

Olympio was a solid race horse, and on his best day pretty damn good. I really don't know how to place him in the context of this thread.

You could easily place him if you were to use a head to head matchup with Dinard as a measuring stick.

[Indian Charlie]

You made a mistake ... and Rollo Tomasi stole your candy and went five hole on your goalie.

It happens. I've been dunked on by Rollo before.

But instead of just brushing it off and moving along... you pulled the goalie and came with the throw as much crap at the wall and hopefully something sticks offense.

It didn't work ... and now I have an empty net to shoot at.

Here's a recap of April 4th '92 at Santa Anita:

Race #1: Turf
Race #2: 32K older male claimers went 8.5fs in 1:42.76
Race #3: Turf
Race #4: N1X alw race for fillies went 6fs in 1:09.75
Race #5: Santa Anita Derby went 9fs in 1:49.25
Race #6: a MSW race at 6.5fs went in 1:16.01
Race #7: Turf
Race #8: San Bernardino went 9fs in 1:47.33
Race #9: a MSW race at 6.5fs went in 1:16.56


You're claiming that a variant should have been split. Well, at what point in the card exactly?

32K older male claimers ran a 95 Beyer in race 2 - A. P. Indy ran a 95 Beyer in race 5 - and Another Review ran a 114 in Race #8.

You're basically arguing that the track was very fast for the first two dirt races ... and someone slowed the speed of the track down markedly for the Santa Anita Derby ... but just minutes after the SA Derby... the track had magically returned to the same speed it was just minutes before the SA Derby.

The only rational thing you could have attempted to argue is that a timer malfunction occured.

I've already discussed how the winner was scratched from his next race - and the 2nd and 3rd place horses didn't win a single race the rest of the year ... but here's a recap of the rest of that field:

4th place finisher Hickman Creek - came out of the race with an injury and was sidelined the rest of the year. Failed in his next 5 starts - all at the N2X alw level.

5th place finisher Fax News - was soundly beaten in each of his next 7 starts

6th place finisher Solid Turth - made his next start in a 50K claimer and finished 7th

7th place finisher Proud Memories - Was beaten 16 lengths in a MSW race his start before the SA Derby - was beaten 15 lengths in the SA Derby - and was 9th beaten 10 lengths at the MSW race level his start after the SA Derby.


I cannot account for how they do things, or how they used to do things, but I do know I've seen them adjust figs on a card seemingly without reason.

I don't care what nonsensical facts you throw at me. I saw the race, my friends saw the race, thousands of others saw the race, and that was no allowance type of performance.

[Indian Charlie]

Yeah. It was a pretty crappy Travers. In defeat was the Preakness/Belmont winner, Florida Derby/2yo champion, Kentucky Derby/Blue Grass winner, and the Haskell/Dwyer/Peter Pan winner.

To be fair, Corporate report was bested by Best Pal in the Swaps in CA, and Olympio beat him in the Arkansas Derby (though CR was making maybe his 3rd career start). So I guess that means Dinard was a lock for the Travers, too.



You mean the Best Pal who won the Oaklawn Handicap and was runner-up in the Kentucky Derby? Please spare me the 6- and 7-year old out-of-state runs.



You could easily place him if you were to use a head to head matchup with Dinard as a measuring stick.

Cool.

So now you are using the Travers winner to show how good the Preakness and Belmont winner was, and you are using the Preakness/Belmont winner to show how good the Travers winner is.

Yeah, Best Pal was 2nd in the derby. Again, the field wasn't very strong, but since he beat Hansel, I guess you'll argue differently.

I had forgotten about the Oaklawn race. Honestly, I don't remember who he beat nor do I have the ability to find out right now. Refresh my memory please, as to whom he beat.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I don't care what nonsensical facts you throw at me. I saw the race, my friends saw the race, thousands of others saw the race, and that was no allowance type of performance.

Anyone who thought AP Indy was a lock in the Derby on the basis of that performance .. is a lock to have bowed out of betting on horse racing by now, no matter the good skills they have in other areas of handicapping.

Unless they have a fortune of money to lose and don't mind losing it.

[RolloTomasi]

Cool.

So now you are using the Travers winner to show how good the Preakness and Belmont winner was, and you are using the Preakness/Belmont winner to show how good the Travers winner is.

No, you used "Travers" and "whoopdeedoo" in the same breath and I felt obliged to review the race. I was just pointing out that it was a strong field, as opposed to comparing specific horses. Hence the references to Fly So Free, Strike The Gold, and Lost Mountain as well.

Yeah, Best Pal was 2nd in the derby. Again, the field wasn't very strong, but since he beat Hansel, I guess you'll argue differently.

I know top handicap horse Another Review was in there. Just under a year later, he would prove to be much faster than AP Indy.

I had forgotten about the Oaklawn race. Honestly, I don't remember who he beat nor do I have the ability to find out right now. Refresh my memory please, as to whom he beat.

This should give you more ammo. Sea Cadet. Though look out for DrugS, because Sea Cadet would go on to run faster races than any of the nags we've been talking about.

In 3rd was the very good Twilight Agenda.

[King Glorious]

King Glorious reportedly had physical issues throughout his career, specifically with his knees (the reason why he missed the Triple Crown). Given the way he tended to finish up his races, plus the fact that he was allegedly pointed for 4 big races, one after he defected from the other, namely the Travers, Iselin, Molson Million, and Super Derby, its not hard to presume that some sort of physical issue ended his career. His sale to the JRA was announced in October, after all four of those races had been run.

I think we've all well established that the Haskell field year was anything but "premier".

Sunday Silence wasn't favored anyway. Another sprinter/miler type like KG, Houston , was.

Well, while you put all your stock in what the jockey's say, I'll stick with the journalists, like Steven Crist, who wrote after the Haskell (echoed by several other turf writers):

King Glorious was good enough to hold on for a three-length victory in the $500,000 Haskell Handicap today at Monmouth Park, but left the impression that stronger opposition and longer distances may give him serious trouble.

The California-based front-runner ran his career record to 8 for 9 today and became the sport's newest millionaire. But his slow final furlong and final time, as he shortened stride badly through the stretch, suggested he would have difficulty handling Easy Goer and Sunday Silence, the nation's top 3-year-olds.

He missed the TC races because he was sick, not because he was injured. After the chance to run in the TC was lost, Hollendorfer mapped out a plan that he called his own TC and it included the Ohio Derby, the Haskell, and the Travers. There were a lot of people that thought he was a miler and wouldn't go past 8f and when he lost his first try beyond it (to Avenging Force at 8.5f), most of those detractors thought their opinion had been verified. They thought Hollendorfer was stupid for deciding to go further with him for his next race but Hollendorfer, after listening to McCarron tell him 9f wouldn't be a problem, decided on the two 9f races. I remember sitting with Jerry one day and my buddy damn near cursed him out for deciding on that path instead of pointing to the King's Bishop. Again, I will admit that after the Ohio Derby, I didn't think that 9f was the best distance for KG and I think it's more than likely that in a full field with a decent and contested pace, Sunday Silence and EG both could beat him and I while a part of me was looking forward to seeing him face EG in the Travers, another part of me didn't want it to happen. But up to 8f and depending on the makeup of the race, even up to 9f, I'd have loved KG's chances. As for the sale to Japan, it wasn't announced til later but the deal was done well before and that was why he didn't race anymore.

That was my mistake about the SA Derby. He said Houston wouldn't be favored and Sunday Silence would be the third choice. As for who's got more credibility between the riders and the writers, take your choice. I'd rather have the opinion of those that have ridden him and competed against him over someone who's just watching them. Writers aren't always right. It was writers that made Favorite Trick the 1997 HOY. But even in that piece from Crist, notice that he said that the impression is that LONGER distance and STRONGER opposition would give him trouble. I've never disagreed with that.

[RolloTomasi]

He missed the TC races because he was sick, not because he was injured.

No, the sick excuse (a "fever" to be exact) was allegedly the reason for being on the shelf for 4 months of his 2yo year.

The excuse in January in the press:

King Glorious's physical condition has been under a cloud for most of his career, but it remains unclear whether he will skip the Triple Crown races because of his knee injury or because his handlers think he cannot handle the longer distances of those races. Hollendorfer has said that he thinks the colt's best distance is a mile or less, rather than the mile and a quarter of the Derby. Most handicappers had strong reservations about King Glorious's ability to handle the Triple Crown distances even before he was injured.

He was voted the nation's second-best 2-year-old behind Easy Goer, and was scheduled to begin his 3-year-old campaign in the El Camino Real Derby on Jan. 15. A few days before that race, however, Hollendorfer said the colt had strained his right knee. He said X-rays have shown some minor bone deterioration in the knee that veterinarians say will correct itself if the colt is rested.

Of course, a few weeks later, one his owners, once King Glorious was ready to run again, claimed it was all just a very elaborate lie to get out of running in the ECR Derby. So I guess they were always passing off different flavored bullsh!t when it came to this horse and you can pick the one you like.

[King Glorious]

No, the sick excuse (a "fever" to be exact) was allegedly the reason for being on the shelf for 4 months of his 2yo year.

The excuse in January in the press:

King Glorious's physical condition has been under a cloud for most of his career, but it remains unclear whether he will skip the Triple Crown races because of his knee injury or because his handlers think he cannot handle the longer distances of those races. Hollendorfer has said that he thinks the colt's best distance is a mile or less, rather than the mile and a quarter of the Derby. Most handicappers had strong reservations about King Glorious's ability to handle the Triple Crown distances even before he was injured.

He was voted the nation's second-best 2-year-old behind Easy Goer, and was scheduled to begin his 3-year-old campaign in the El Camino Real Derby on Jan. 15. A few days before that race, however, Hollendorfer said the colt had strained his right knee. He said X-rays have shown some minor bone deterioration in the knee that veterinarians say will correct itself if the colt is rested.

Of course, a few weeks later, one his owners, once King Glorious was ready to run again, claimed it was all just a very elaborate lie to get out of running in the ECR Derby. So I guess they were always passing off different flavored bullsh!t when it came to this horse and you can pick the one you like.

I don't know what we are really debating here. I don't know who that writer is or where he got his info but I know it's not factually correct. Some of it is though. Hollendorfer was unsure about his ability to stretch out and did think he would be best at distances up to 8f, maybe 8.5f at most. He was absolutely not planned to run in the ECR Derby though. The plan was for a break after the Hollywood Futurity and to come back in the San Vicente and the San Rafael and if all went well, to try the SA Derby. That's what was told to us. We were told that it was his shins and not his knees that kept him out of action during the summer of his 2yo season. Hollendorfer said he was really concerned though after the Hollywood Futurity with why he kept trying to get out and wouldn't take any chances. He did miss some training so he wasn't going to make the San Vicente or the San Rafael and Hollendorfer was not going to bring him back in the San Felipe. What he said was that he wasn't going to have him ready to try 9f by SA Derby time and without finding the answer to that question, he saw no sense in pushing him early in the season so he backed off and wanted to point to the summer. He said that he planned on trying to get him ready for the Affirmed and the Swaps but after his loss in May in the Gold Rush, he was still not sure the horse wanted to go beyond 8f. It was McCarron who convinced him that not only could he do it but he could be good at it. McCarron took complete blame for the loss and it was after that when the decision was made to try him longer. The reason he went to Ohio was because he didn't want to have to face Sunday Silence in the Swaps. He then figured he'd try the Jim Dandy or the Haskell, whichever one Easy Goer wasn't in. Make no mistake about it, he wasn't eager to take on either of those two at 9f and I don't blame him. After the Haskell, he wanted to go to the Travers but it never happened.

[chucklestheclown]

I don't know what we are really debating here. I don't know who that writer is or where he got his info but I know it's not factually correct. Some of it is though. Hollendorfer was unsure about his ability to stretch out and did think he would be best at distances up to 8f, maybe 8.5f at most. He was absolutely not planned to run in the ECR Derby though. The plan was for a break after the Hollywood Futurity and to come back in the San Vicente and the San Rafael and if all went well, to try the SA Derby. That's what was told to us. We were told that it was his shins and not his knees that kept him out of action during the summer of his 2yo season. Hollendorfer said he was really concerned though after the Hollywood Futurity with why he kept trying to get out and wouldn't take any chances. He did miss some training so he wasn't going to make the San Vicente or the San Rafael and Hollendorfer was not going to bring him back in the San Felipe. What he said was that he wasn't going to have him ready to try 9f by SA Derby time and without finding the answer to that question, he saw no sense in pushing him early in the season so he backed off and wanted to point to the summer. He said that he planned on trying to get him ready for the Affirmed and the Swaps but after his loss in May in the Gold Rush, he was still not sure the horse wanted to go beyond 8f. It was McCarron who convinced him that not only could he do it but he could be good at it. McCarron took complete blame for the loss and it was after that when the decision was made to try him longer. The reason he went to Ohio was because he didn't want to have to face Sunday Silence in the Swaps. He then figured he'd try the Jim Dandy or the Haskell, whichever one Easy Goer wasn't in. Make no mistake about it, he wasn't eager to take on either of those two at 9f and I don't blame him. After the Haskell, he wanted to go to the Travers but it never happened.
Did you own King Glorious?

[CSC]

She would have been thumped soundly by BTA.... but Inside Information probably would have beaten Cigar had she run in the '95 Classic.

I wouldn’t say thumped for 2 reasons, she already had beaten Fly So Free decisively in the Molson Million and he was hardly disgraced in the Classic beaten by less than 4 lengths by a loose on the lead Black Tie Affair. The times of the Classic and Distaff were not overly dissimilar 1:50.95 & 2:02.95. I think she would have given him a better run for his money than Twilight Agenda had.

Inside Information raced against the clock in the distaff on a sloppy track earlier in the day and the time was impressive, but at 1 ¼ and on a listed stickier track in the Classic, Cigar would have broke her down, one thing times do not tell in a race are race dynamics and the pressure a horse can emit on its competition. Cigar would have tracked her, pressured her and broke her in the last furlong. I will say this she was a slop monster but as we have seen Cigar was not chopped liver on a wet track either.

[King Glorious]

Did you own King Glorious?

No.

[RolloTomasi]

I don't know what we are really debating here. I don't know who that writer is or where he got his info but I know it's not factually correct. Some of it is though. Hollendorfer was unsure about his ability to stretch out and did think he would be best at distances up to 8f, maybe 8.5f at most. He was absolutely not planned to run in the ECR Derby though. The plan was for a break after the Hollywood Futurity and to come back in the San Vicente and the San Rafael and if all went well, to try the SA Derby. That's what was told to us.

As far his knee problem goes:

After King Glorious worked a half-mile last Saturday at Bay Meadows, there was a swelling in his right leg. Two veterinarians--Dennis Mulhern of UC Davis and Jack Robbins of Los Angeles--examined him and determined that the colt should be withheld from heavy training for a month.

And the El Camino Real Derby:

Hollendorfer said: "We've been downplaying the Derby even before this happened. We haven't set our goals too far ahead with this horse. Our year- end goal was the $1-million race at Hollywood Park (the Futurity) and we reached that. Then our next goal was the El Camino Real, and we're disappointed about missing that. The Kentucky Derby is too far down the road to speculate about it."

On Friday at Bay Meadows, a shipment of 16,000 baseball caps arrived, with the wording "Will the King Reign?" printed on the front. The caps were going to be given to fans attending the El Camino Real.

Some of these quotes in this and other posts come from LA Times and the NY Times (when they actually had a horse racing column in the sports page).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Cigar would have tracked her, pressured her and broke her in the last furlong. I will say this she was a slop monster but as we have seen Cigar was not chopped liver on a wet track either.

Absolutely not.

A.) Jerry Bailey wouldn't have used Cigar and forced him out of his comfort zone just to pressure a filly. Had Inside Info run in the Classic she wouldn't have been viewed as Cigar's only possible danger.

B.) horses don't run faster - they run slower races when taken out of their comfort zone to pressure another rival. See Cigar's Pacific Classic.

2nd place finisher L'Carriere, like mostly all of the horses Cigar beat, was pretty much a bum. Before running 2nd in the BC Classic .. he was 4th in the Meadowlands Cup behind former nickle claimer turned Juan Surey move-up Poor But Honest. In his start after his 2nd place finish in the BC Classic - he was 4th to Wekiva Springs.

This kind of sillyness reminds me a lot of how every single trainer I talked with up here swore Mine That Bird would have beat Rachel Alexandra in the Ky Derby. And many insisted Rachel Alexandra would have run no better than 5th in the Derby.

It's amusing how dumb people act when you talk about fillies running against males. I'm surprised there still aren't people who insist Rags To Riches would have had no shot of beating Curlin in the Belmont ... even though she actually did run in the Belmont - and actually did win the race.

[CSC]

Absolutely not.

A.) Jerry Bailey wouldn't have used Cigar and forced him out of his comfort zone just to pressure a filly. Had Inside Info run in the Classic she wouldn't have been viewed as Cigar's only possible danger.

B.) horses don't run faster - they run slower races when taken out of their comfort zone to pressure another rival. See Cigar's Pacific Classic.



A couple things, yes this is generally true for some horses but not in this case when discussing Cigar. You cited the Pacific Classic and I am glad you did, infact that race and to a lesser degree the Donn Hdcp against Holy Bull showed his versatility as a horse. Bailey could ask for speed if he needed it.

In the Pacific Classic his hand was forced by an overzealous Nakatani on Dramatic Gold to run early with the legitimate speedball Siphon on the lead, the fact that he won the battle against a horse like Siphon but only to lose the war to Dare And Go post Dubai illustrates to me he would have fractured Inside Information in the classic(again 1/8th farther than the Distaff and a yr earlier when he was probably better) had she ran. In 95 there is no way Inside Information could have won the battle and survived the war against Cigar, and I don't even think he would have had to run with her early, all he would have had to have done is lay off of her, make that sweeping move on the turn and cruise on by per his normal MO.

[Indian Charlie]

A couple things, yes this is generally true for some horses but not in this case when discussing Cigar. You cited the Pacific Classic and I am glad you did, infact that race and to a lesser degree the Donn Hdcp against Holy Bull showed his versatility as a horse. Bailey could ask for speed if he needed it.

In the Pacific Classic his hand was forced by an overzealous Nakatani on Dramatic Gold to run early with the legitimate speedball Siphon on the lead, the fact that he won the battle against a horse like Siphon but only to lose the war to Dare And Go post Dubai illustrates to me he would have fractured Inside Information in the classic(again 1/8th farther than the Distaff and a yr earlier when he was probably better) had she ran. In 95 there is no way Inside Information could have won the battle and survived the war against Cigar, and I don't even think he would have had to run with her early, all he would have had to have done is lay off of her, make that sweeping move on the turn and cruise on by per his normal MO.

If Cigar had tried to sit off II in that circumstance, that race would have been over before it started.

His only hope, and it would have been a slim one at best, would have been to try to duel her into submission.

[CSC]

If Cigar had tried to sit off II in that circumstance, that race would have been over before it started.

His only hope, and it would have been a slim one at best, would have been to try to duel her into submission.

At 1 1/4 she may have backed up herself, if I were the Jockey of Cigar I would simply not let her get more than a length away from me, forcing her to make a decision to run faster or slow down, either way Cigar would have finished faster than her at 1 1/4 or even 1 1/8th, he already has shown he could run with Siphon and Holy Bull even for 1/2 a race and fare well, she would be a step down.

[King Glorious]

At 1 1/4 she may have backed up herself, if I were the Jockey of Cigar I would simply not let her get more than a length away from me, forcing her to make a decision to run faster or slow down, either way Cigar would have finished faster than her at 1 1/4 or even 1 1/8th, he already has shown he could run with Siphon and Holy Bull even for 1/2 a race and fare well, she would be a step down.

She wasn't a step down from Siphon.

[CSC]

She wasn't a step down from Siphon.

Really it depends if you are looking at what and where she was racing on, she was at her best at Belmont and she was very proficient on off tracks, no surprise being she was by slop sire Private Account. For argugent's sake, do you think she would have been close to Siphon and Cigar had she run in the Pacific Classic?

[King Glorious]

Really it depends if you are looking at what and where she was racing on, she was at her best at Belmont and she was very proficient on off tracks, no surprise being she was by slop sire Private Account. For argugent's sake, do you think she would have been close to Siphon and Cigar had she run in the Pacific Classic?

It might have come out the same way it did. Her and Siphon may have compromised each other. But I do think she was better than both of them though, by a lot over Siphon and by a little over Cigar.

[CSC]

It might have come out the same way it did. Her and Siphon may have compromised each other. But I do think she was better than both of them though, by a lot over Siphon and by a little over Cigar.

She had a great record against fillies, and we were left with an indelible memory in her last race. Until a filly tries open company, she can't even be put in the same league of Cigar, if you are saying she was better than him you are saying quite alot, but do remember what happened to Azeri when she tried the colts.

[RolloTomasi]

It might have come out the same way it did. Her and Siphon may have compromised each other. But I do think she was better than both of them though, by a lot over Siphon and by a little over Cigar.

Inside Information certainly was consistent, but I don't recall her races being particularly fast or impressive outside of the lopsided BC.

And though she outlasted them all, at 3 she was no better than 3rd or 4th amongst Heavenly Prize, Lakeway, and Sardula. Really, some their efforts as 2 and 3yos outweigh anything she ultimately did as a 4yo.

Meanwhile, Siphon ran some wickedly fast races at a variety of distances (6-10f) from '95-'97.

[Antitrust32]

She had a great record against fillies, and we were left with an indelible memory in her last race. Until a filly tries open company, she can't even be put in the same league of Cigar, if you are saying she was better than him you are saying quite alot, but do remember what happened to Azeri when she tried the colts.


you are sexist towards fillies! now i know!!! ;) :D

[CSC]

you are sexist towards fillies! now i know!!! ;) :D

I know you are joking, but I actually have paid quite a few compliments here with many fillies. :p (Is this the proper emoticon?)

[King Glorious]

She had a great record against fillies, and we were left with an indelible memory in her last race. Until a filly tries open company, she can't even be put in the same league of Cigar, if you are saying she was better than him you are saying quite alot, but do remember what happened to Azeri when she tried the colts.

I don't agree that a filly has to beat open company. Goodbye Halo didn't face the boys in 1988 but we saw her beat Winning Colors in the Las Virgenes and lost to her by a narrow margin in the BC so we know she was in the same league as any of the boys were that year.

Azeri didn't try the boys when she was at her best. You say remember what happened to Azeri. Why not say remember what happened to Winning Colors, Rags to Riches, Rachel Alexandra, Goldikova, Zarkava, Lady's Secret, Miesque, Ridgewood Pearl, Safely Kept.........I could go on and on and on?

[Antitrust32]

I know you are joking, but I actually have paid quite a few compliments here with many fillies. :p (Is this the proper emoticon?)


:tro:

[Antitrust32]

I don't agree that a filly has to beat open company. Goodbye Halo didn't face the boys in 1988 but we saw her beat Winning Colors in the Las Virgenes and lost to her by a narrow margin in the BC so we know she was in the same league as any of the boys were that year.

Azeri didn't try the boys when she was at her best. You say remember what happened to Azeri. Why not say remember what happened to Winning Colors, Rags to Riches, Rachel Alexandra, Goldikova, Zarkava, Lady's Secret, Miesque, Ridgewood Pearl, Safely Kept.........I could go on and on and on?


Ouigi Board.. makyvi Diva (sp?).. Pride.. that one really good mare Sunshine something from some Asian country...

The best mares beat the colts (well if given the opportunity of course)

[King Glorious]

Ouigi Board.. makyvi Diva (sp?).. Pride.. that one really good mare Sunshine something from some Asian country...

The best mares beat the colts (well if given the opportunity of course)

Last year, Zarkava beat Goldikova. The two best horses in Europe were both fillies (3yo fillies at that) so why should they have to beat males that aren't as good as they are to prove how good they are? Same with Rachel and Zenyatta this year. Either would prove more by beating the other one that they could prove by beating males.