Set the easily-swayed straight about Racing

[Kasept]

Posted this in the 'Frustration' thread, but thought to use it as a threadstarter as well given that some of us are being confronted by friends, etc., who don't understand what goes on in racing and are being duped.

They might understand it more if we were led by industry officials presenting a unified voice in response to the inane critiques, and were on the proactive offensive here. As usual, they aren't.

A few numbers from the 1996/2005 economic impact studies of the American Horse Council:

$112 Billion -- Racing's overall contribution to the GDP

$25 Billion -- Racing's Direct Value of Goods & Services

$1.9 Billion -- Taxes/Fees generated for Federal, State & Local Govt's.

1.4 Million -- Employed full time by Racing and Racing-related industries

And we have to listen on TV and radio as ignorant buffoons are allowed to relate Thoroughbred Racing to dog and cock fighting?

This is a huge industry. It is the progenerator of ALL GAMING IN THIS COUNTRY as well.. Stand up for it because the permissiveness being allowed to run rampant and roughshod over the game right now is outrageous.

[justindew]

If it was Big Truck who went down instead of the filly, would any of this be happening?

[HaloWishingwell]

Probably so. I don't think it mattered about the sex of the animal. PETA took the advantage of the media coverage of the breakdown and the national stage of the Derby.

[justindew]

Probably so. I don't think it mattered about the sex of the animal. PETA took the advantage of the media coverage of the breakdown and the national stage of the Derby.

Maybe PETA still would have acted in an opportunistic fashion, but I doubt the story would be drawing as much attention.

[Kasept]

As I mentioned elsewhere, isn't it odd that those so concerned about the welfare of horses had not a word to say about the 2 that died at the Rolex 3 day event the previous weekend? 50+ competitors.. 2 dead. Not a peep.

[HaloWishingwell]

Maybe PETA still would have acted in an opportunistic fashion, but I doubt the story would be drawing as much attention.

PETA needs the slightest opening and they would jump on the opportunity. Not to criticize NBC handling of the matter and not to disrespect EIGHT BELLES but BIG BROWN'S win was pushed aside for a good amount of time after he crossed the finish line. The whole attention was now on the injured filly, the ambulance coming to her, replays of her race, her gallop out and the replays were clear. It was enough coverage to make them come out of the woods.

[Coach Pants]

The white Randy Moss was on Sportscenter and said whips should be removed from racing. This is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've ever heard from a racing expert. I'm not going to go into the reasons why it's ridiculous because it should be painfully obvious to anyone who watches races on a regular basis.

[ShadowRoll]

As a diversionary tactic, I think we ought to start a campaign to ban NASCAR. That sport has got to be much more dangerous than horseracing, and NASCAR fans are much easier to make fun of.

But, seriously...thanks, Steve, for your usual reasoned and yet passionate response to yet another issue threatening the sport we love.

[ateamstupid]

As a diversionary tactic, I think we ought to start a campaign to ban NASCAR. That sport has got to be much more dangerous than horseracing, and NASCAR fans are much easier to make fun of.

But, seriously...thanks, Steve, for your usual reasoned and yet passionate response to yet another issue threatening the sport we love.

Not to mention all of the gasoline used! If we could somehow roll this outrage over NASCAR way, that'd be great.

[my miss storm cat]

They might understand it more if we were led by industry officials presenting a unified voice in response to the inane critiques, and were on the proactive offensive here. As usual, they aren't.

That is, of course, a good point.

PETA loves nothing more that to use shock value to make their points.

I understand your thoughts on the financial side.... personally though I'm using the more emotional approach with the people in my life who are questioning the cruelty of the sport.

What's working for me is to explain the many retirement foundations, the charities, how well these horses are cared for, how this is their job and that's a good thing, about heart..... stuff like that.

I've managed to change the perception of a few anyway...

[sumitas]

This is a circle the wagons thread. Kinda reminds me of that cult down in Texas.

I am thankful for the Californias and Keenelands of this world and even PETA and ESPN to bring long long needed improvements to this sport.

The issue is Eight Belles and the KD and horse racing in general. The issue is not PETA.

[HaloWishingwell]

[I]Would anyone here be upset with PETA if they were strictly going after the medicating of the horses? Would this help with the breeding? Would we get strictly healthy horses on track?Or would cripple horses be sent to the track anyway by desperate trainers and/or owners?I]

[Riot]

In England, the breakdown rate is just about the same as the US on the flat (mostly turf racing).

In Australia, it's about half of England and the U.S. rate (flat, turf)

[sumitas]

I'd say there is room for improvement .

I rest my case.

[Riot]

There is always room for improvement. The point was to compare the breakdown rates from countries with different legal drug use laws.

[Riot]

I'd say there is room for improvement .

I rest my case.

Can you name 5 initiatives that have been undertaken within the past 20 years with the goal of making horseracing safer?

[Dunbar]

I rest my case.

I doubt it.

--Dunbar

[sumitas]

I'm more interested in any initiatives now to make horse racing safer.

LOL, I rest my case.

[parsixfarms]

My intent is not to start a conversation on the merits of synthetic versus conventional dirt surfaces, but in light of this weekend's events, maybe it's not such a bad thing (from a PR perspective) to have the Breeders' Cup being contested this year over a synthetic racing surface (assuming that's the way SA goes).

[Dunbar]

The white Randy Moss was on Sportscenter and said whips should be removed from racing. This is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've ever heard from a racing expert. I'm not going to go into the reasons why it's ridiculous because it should be painfully obvious to anyone who watches races on a regular basis.

Okay, I'll bite. Why is it ridiculous?

I'm not saying it's a good idea. But I don't see it as ridiculous. Is there a valid reason we need horses being whipped for the game to be interesting?

--Dunbar

[Riot]

I'm more interested in any initiatives now to make horse racing safer.

LOL, I rest my case.

There are indeed some initiatives "now" - can you name those?

In other words, do you know anything at all about what has been done in the past, or what is being done now, within the sport of horseracing to make it safer?

LOL, I rest my case.

[sumitas]

More needs to be done. And much faster.

[ateamstupid]

The last 10 posts in this thread made my head hurt.

[GPK]

The last 10 posts in this thread made my head hurt.


Like it wasn't already...:rolleyes:

[Riot]

Caring about the welfare of the racehorse hasn't been the black void that PETA and other detractors say it is.

How about a list of industry-driven initiatives, things that have been done for racehorses, to make their racing careers, and post-career lives, better. Here's three to start:

Ongoing reconfigurations of inner track rail: wood (splinters, dangerous) replaced by plastic/metal: vertical support posts replaced by slanted posts (less chance of horses striking them), narrow top rail replaced by wider safety top rail. Horses no longer spike themselves to death on inner track rail.

The Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse Summit (initiated October 2006)

The initiation of serious drug testing in the 1980's

[AeWingnut]

What can you tell people that don't follow horseracing?

I tell them about Eight Belles incredible will to win. That the jockey gave her a good trip.

I tell them that the connections of Eight Belles absolutely loved her. Like Barbaro, they would give anything to save her.

Bettors like me would rather lose than have anyone get hurt.

PETA is no better than the people that protest at fallen soldiers' funerals. Except PETA is only in it for the money. They look at tragedy as an oppurtunity to cash in.

[Coach Pants]

Okay, I'll bite. Why is it ridiculous?

I'm not saying it's a good idea. But I don't see it as ridiculous. Is there a valid reason we need horses being whipped for the game to be interesting?

--Dunbar
Whips are needed to help control the animal. Some horses need whipped to help them hit different gears and switch leads. I can only imagine the number of champions who wouldn't be if whips were banned from racing. The number of horses veering out and in would also increase.

Hell I'll even go as far to say catastrophic injuries would increase if you take away the whip.

It's a horrible idea and was a completely lazy excuse from Moss. The whip had nothing to do with what happened to Eight Belles.

[the_fat_man]

Okay, I'll bite. Why is it ridiculous?

I'm not saying it's a good idea. But I don't see it as ridiculous. Is there a valid reason we need horses being whipped for the game to be interesting?

--Dunbar

Less take it from the handicapping perspective:

Anyone who watches races closely knows that MORE races are BLOWN by excessive use of the whip than any benefit that might come as a result of it.
Am I the only one tired of seeing horses DUCK/DRIFT IN upon entering the stretch under RIGHTY whipping? Or, how many times has a horse drifted out or in significantly because of overuse of the whip in the lane? How many photos have I lost because of this ****?

Taking the whip out of plays makes the jocks focus on RIDING; gives them one less things to to. And, believe me, the LESS they have to do, the better.

The most important thing on a FAIR track is having a clear/straight path to the wire. I don't see how a whip comes into play here, other than working against this.

Whip and CASTRATION need to go the way of the good-ole-boy mentality (that still seems to be pervasive in racing) ---the way to EXTINCTION.

[Kasept]

Whips are needed to help control the animal. Some horses need whipped to help them hit different gears and switch leads. I can only imagine the number of champions who wouldn't be if whips were banned from racing. The number of horses veering out and in would also increase.

Hell I'll even go as far to say catastrophic injuries would increase if you take away the whip.

It's a horrible idea and was a completely lazy excuse from Moss. The whip had nothing to do with what happened to Eight Belles.
Best.PantsPost.Evah.

[Dunbar]

Whips are needed to help control the animal. Some horses need whipped to help them hit different gears and switch leads. I can only imagine the number of champions who wouldn't be if whips were banned from racing. The number of horses veering out and in would also increase.

Hell I'll even go as far to say catastrophic injuries would increase if you take away the whip.

It's a horrible idea and was a completely lazy excuse from Moss. The whip had nothing to do with what happened to Eight Belles.

I'm not that worried about the champions who wouldn't be champions if whips were barred. Other horses who respond to hand or voice or just run on sheer competitive will would have become champions in their place. If we allow all drugs, we'd probably have a lot of different and maybe faster champions, too. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I'm also skeptical about the necessity of the whip for steering the horse. Would you care to give an estimate on what percentage of the time the whip is used to steer the horse vs what percentage of time it is used to try to make a horse go faster? And how often has the whip been blamed for causing a horse to veer out of it's path? Possibly often enough to offset the number of times it is used to correct a path problem.

Even for the horses that have become dependent on the whip to change gears or switch leads--isn't that often a result of the training? Don't you think horses could be trained to switch leads by getting a message direct from the rider's hands?

I'm writing as a rank amateur in this area. But it seems obvious to me that 90%+ of whipping is done to make horses run faster, and it's not at all obvious to me why inflicting pain has become an integral part of the game.

--Dunbar

[philcski]

This is a circle the wagons thread. Kinda reminds me of that cult down in Texas.

I am thankful for the Californias and Keenelands of this world and even PETA and ESPN to bring long long needed improvements to this sport.

The issue is Eight Belles and the KD and horse racing in general. The issue is not PETA.

You say more reasonable things at 2:30 in the morning (Miller Time) than this. Stop. Now.

Best.PantsPost.Evah.

I laughed

[horseofcourse]

Ask Steve Cauthen if he wins a triple crown without a whip.

I guess overall it would have been safer for Eight Belles to continually crash through rails. Jones has explained it. I'm not sure what Randy Moss is going with here.

[FGFan]

Whips are needed to help control the animal. Some horses need whipped to help them hit different gears and switch leads. I can only imagine the number of champions who wouldn't be if whips were banned from racing. The number of horses veering out and in would also increase.

Hell I'll even go as far to say catastrophic injuries would increase if you take away the whip.

It's a horrible idea and was a completely lazy excuse from Moss. The whip had nothing to do with what happened to Eight Belles.

Very excellent post, you should get pie.
I was thinking exactly the same thing last nite and I'm glad you posted it, especially the part about Randy Moss. I do like him and I just don't get where he is going with that.

IMO most against the whip have never trained an animal in their life. The slap of a whip on most 1000 lb. animals is not what some of you seem to think.
Whips are not solely used to make a horse go faster although it may appear that way, often times it is to focus the horse, or as pants said to stop a catastrophic event of a horse changing lanes.
Some horses don't need it like Samba Rooster. And has been mentioned there is the rule of excessive whipping the stewards may use and have used.
I have absolutely no problem with the use of the whip when used properly.

[the_fat_man]

Ask Steve Cauthen if he wins a triple crown without a whip.



How about I ask him, instead, if he wins the triple crown without pace-favoring perfect trips? Or, maybe, if he wins if Alydar changes leads?

[Riot]

More terrible things the heartless horse racing industry has done to promote the safety of horses on the track over the years:

Elimination of excessively high toe grabs; what shoes are allowed on what surface

Presence of outriders in the morning and afternoon

Padded bricks as paddock and horse walkway footing

Second overgirth

Gate cards

Safety padding and alteration to construction of starting gates

Artificial racing surfaces - improved maintenance of all track surfaces

Greyson-Jockey Club Research Foundation

NTRA Charities Barbaro Memorial Fund

National equine drug testing laboratory standards and uniform protocol

Ambulances and veterinarians on-track for horses

Elimination/control over what drugs can be given as raceday medications

[horseofcourse]

How about I ask him, instead, if he wins the triple crown without pace-favoring perfect trips? Or, maybe, if he wins if Alydar changes leads?

Yes you're correct on those points...he has nonetheless stated in every interview he has done on the race crediting the win to the only time he ever hit Affirmed left handed as what gave him the ultimate edge in that Belmont.

[2MinsToPost]

I am going to para-phrase my response at lunch today to several co-workers who were discussing it at the table I was sitting. Looking back I am quite proud of it (patting myself on the back lol).

Eight Belles is the exception to the rule. I invite you to sit at the track, any track for several days in a row and watch every race. Bet you a paycheck you will not see a horse euthanized. I then went on with this rant...........
Most of you know I love the track and have been a regular at Beulah, Scioto, Turfway and River for well over 5 years now. I have only seen 1 horse euthanized on track. These athletes exert incredible amounts of strength thru their legs down to their ankles. Just like your proffesional ball players. Hey, they get hurt too don't they? The difference is obvious comparing pro ball players to t-breds.

A couple of them seemed to understand the comparison.

[TheSpyder]

I think the biggest problem is the weight of the jockeys. I think they should be replaced with all the anorexic models that are now out of work and take the weight down to 86 poundshttp://www.shoppingblog.com/pics/stella_tennant.gif

[the_fat_man]

I think the biggest problem is the weight of the jockeys. I think they should be replaced with all the anorexic models that are now out of work and take the weight down to 86 pounds

That's absolutely EXTRAORDINARY: how in the world did you ever find a (picture of) a woman WITHOUT a tit job?

[2MinsToPost]

That's absolutely EXTRAORDINARY: how in the world did you ever find a (picture of) a woman WITHOUT a tit job?

She needs a Big Mac with fries BAAADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Coach Pants]

I think the biggest problem is the weight of the jockeys. I think they should be replaced with all the anorexic models that are now out of work and take the weight down to 86 poundshttp://www.shoppingblog.com/pics/stella_tennant.gif
break her back, **** her ***, make her humbel like old country way.

[MaTH716]

It almost seems that Moss (the white one, pretty funny stuff) is trying to appease the PETA people by saying what he did. I look at the whip as tool that the jocks need. Some guys are just better with it than others. But by taking it away, doesn't mean that horses will never break down again. Everyone saw where Barbaro got hurt. It is always unfortunate when a horse goes down, but the bottom line is that they are just very fragile athletes. By the way did PETA make any noise after Chelokee went down on Friday or were not enough people watching?

[Coach Pants]

It almost seems that Moss (the white one, pretty funny stuff) is trying to appease the PETA people by saying what he did. I look at the whip as tool that the jocks need. Some guys are just better with it than others. But by taking it away, doesn't mean that horses will never break down again. Everyone saw where Barbaro got hurt. It is always unfortunate when a horse goes down, but the bottom line is that they are just very fragile athletes. By the way did PETA make any noise after Chelokee went down on Friday or were not enough people watching?
Well I believe Oprah was on the same time as the Oaks.

[Danzig]

I think the biggest problem is the weight of the jockeys. I think they should be replaced with all the anorexic models that are now out of work and take the weight down to 86 poundshttp://www.shoppingblog.com/pics/stella_tennant.gif

damn man, she looks skinner than the andersonville prisoners.

[Danzig]

Well I believe Oprah was on the same time as the Oaks.

or dr phil...do people really watch that crap? oh..wait, the view is still on too, isn't it? ugh

[Cajungator26]

If it was Big Truck who went down instead of the filly, would any of this be happening?

IMO, yes.

By the way, I love Big Truck. Shush. :p

[Rileyoriley]

As I mentioned elsewhere, isn't it odd that those so concerned about the welfare of horses had not a word to say about the 2 that died at the Rolex 3 day event the previous weekend? 50+ competitors.. 2 dead. Not a peep.


Wasn't on national tv. I was waiting for someone to mention the Rolex event. Thanks Steve.

[paisjpq]

Wasn't on national tv. I was waiting for someone to mention the Rolex event. Thanks Steve.
It was on NBC on sunday. Just 1 hour of highlights though. I didn't see it so I don't know if they mentioned the falls, but they have shown them in years past.

[Danzig]

yeah, they have. i was watching an event last year, may have been the rolex...anyway, horse was doing very well, but yards from the finish, he stepped wrong. they said later that he had to be put down, i figured he would be just from what i saw.

[letswastemoney]

I get what the original post is saying, but I don't believe the economic impact of horse racing relates to what the protesters are saying about horses being killed.

[Rupert Pupkin]

To just to clarify my position about whether horseracing is cruel or not, I don't think that horseracing is cruel to all racehorses. If you have a pretty sound horse that is in a barn of a trainer that is competent and conscientious, then I think that horse will have a pretty good life. That horse will be taken extremely good care of. In a situation like that, I don't see any cruelty. Unfortunately, most racehorses are not in situations like that.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Maybe PETA still would have acted in an opportunistic fashion, but I doubt the story would be drawing as much attention.

Wonder why they weren't protesting after that nice Graham Motion thing broke down badly behind in the BC Mile a couple of years ago.

Funfair - By Singspiel out of a Mr. P Mare.

I thought that was a nice horse. Nicer than a Honeybee winner at least.

[Kasept]

I get what the original post is saying, but I don't believe the economic impact of horse racing relates to what the protesters are saying about horses being killed.
It does when they try to relate racing to underground animal death matches.

[magic_idol]

While i do Not agree with Peta & Their Supporters & think personally that they should be put in a truck with a pipe from the exhaust to the back of the truck :rolleyes: ......uuuuuuuummmmmmmmmm i Digress ,
I do feel ( At the risk of being booed ) that we have strayed way to far in the chase for speed in the durability of racehorses, with conformation faults commonplace " i go to the sales now & if i see a horse without any i think slow horse" it was while i was listening to one of your shows steve with the bloke who has storm cat that i thought gee we really are getting carried away with times in the end does it matter what time the horse wins by ? or that so long as it wins ;) .
I would like to see the german attitude with racing taken where a stallion cant stand unless its won a major race & mustnt have major confirmation fault sure it might make the racing slower but maybe not:confused: .
Side note unfortunately seen quite a few racehorses break down nothing could have stopped the unfortunate accident with eight belles with 500 & up kilos on a bone no bigger than the size of two of your fingers under increased pressure one fetlock snaps forcing the horse at speed onto the other fetlock which snaps as well :(

[_ed_]

And how often has the whip been blamed for causing a horse to veer out of it's path?
I can say that this has been quite common recently in this country...although the jockeys here use it much less frequently, so maybe it comes as an unexpected thing to the horses here.

[MisterB]

http://popforum.net/images/smiles/icon_petasucks.png