Big Truck - NY bred

[sumitas]

He is a "true" NY bred in that his sire Hook And Ladder is NY based. He is now the #1 leading sire in NY after Big Truck's win. There are so many "NY breds" that are conceived outside NY but dropped in NY, making them a NY bred.
http://www.nybreds.com/frames/FS_foalbarn.html

You can see "NY breds" by Kitten's Joy, Pulpit, Giacamo, Smarty Jones etc, etc. Makes it kind of tough to compete for NY breeders that use NY based stallions.

That must partly be a reason for sires like Utopia, Andromeda's Hero, Golden Missile, Smooth Jazz etc to locate to NY. Local breeders need access to compete with the carpet baggers.

[Bigsmc]

If you don't like the carpetbaggers, get the rules changed or put your mare on a van. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[Kasept]

He is a "true" NY bred in that his sire Hook And Ladder is NY based. He is now the #1 leading sire in NY after Big Truck's win. There are so many "NY breds" that are conceived outside NY but dropped in NY, making them a NY bred.
http://www.nybreds.com/frames/FS_foalbarn.html

You can see "NY breds" by Kitten's Joy, Pulpit, Giacamo, Smarty Jones etc, etc. Makes it kind of tough to compete for NY breeders that use NY based stallions.

That must partly be a reason for sires like Utopia, Andromeda's Hero, Golden Missile, Smooth Jazz etc to locate to NY. Local breeders need access to compete with the carpet baggers.

You've got to be kidding with this.. For starters, the purses and awards, as well as NYRA's commitment to the NYB program, are outageously disproportionate to the quality of the racing. For that alone, the NY breeder should be grateful...

The monies made available to the poor, unfortunate "NY breeders that use NY based stallions" are STILL there after the 'carpetbagger' breeders' runners, who enhance the profile of the program, clear their NY bred conditions. It seems that at some point, every slow-moving NY bred barge manages to find a port...

IN POINT OF FACT... NY breeders who are using the NY sires should be grateful for the higher profile and more talented artificial NY breds as their presence in the program helps the muskrats amass earnings far out of whack with their talent by retaining NYB conditions LONGER.

[sumitas]

It's the NY taxpayer's money and it is mostly benefitting the upper echelon of racing which are out of staters. I don't see why NY money needs to subsidize out of state interests. If anything, the incentives could be cut and targeted for "true" NY breds, those sired and foaled in NY.

But that won't happen so "true" NY breds will have to continue to slam dunk the fakes.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

inventor of the ny state bred turf sprint race........46k nw3x

[freddymo]

It's the NY taxpayer's money and it is mostly benefitting the upper echelon of racing which are out of staters. I don't see why NY money needs to subsidize out of state interests. If anything, the incentives could be cut and targeted for "true" NY breds, those sired and foaled in NY.

But that won't happen so "true" NY breds will have to continue to slam dunk the fakes.


I am not sure that people are going to get to excited watching "True NY Bred" blaze 6f's in 115.4..At least this way you have a shot to develop a Precise End and Freud.

[Holland Hacker]

He is a "true" NY bred in that his sire Hook And Ladder is NY based. He is now the #1 leading sire in NY after Big Truck's win. There are so many "NY breds" that are conceived outside NY but dropped in NY, making them a NY bred.
http://www.nybreds.com/frames/FS_foalbarn.html

You can see "NY breds" by Kitten's Joy, Pulpit, Giacamo, Smarty Jones etc, etc. Makes it kind of tough to compete for NY breeders that use NY based stallions.

That must partly be a reason for sires like Utopia, Andromeda's Hero, Golden Missile, Smooth Jazz etc to locate to NY. Local breeders need access to compete with the carpet baggers.

Isn't the idea of the NYB program to support the farms in New York state that breed horses?

I would think there are a lot of individuals employeed at farms in New York to care for all of the mares and their foals that they birth each year in New York regardless of where the stallion stands. I think letting mares breed outside of New York and allowing the resultant foal to qualify as NY Breds is a good thing. At a minimum it should improve the quality of NY bred racing if not he "class" of NY Breds.

NY will probably never compete with Kentucky for recruiting the top stallions but to prevent NY mares from breeding to them would be a disservice to NY Breeders and probably drive many breeders with top borderline mares to leave NY for greener pastures elsewhere. This would be a huge step backwards for the NY program as the qualify of NY Bred races would decline while the purses hopefully increase.

[sumitas]

The Big (NY) Truck is rollin now.

And notice in the link, if you want to, 3rd place finisher Dynamic Wayne is by NY based Eltish. So there.

http://www.nybreds.com/

You all make some good points and I understand your insight. #$%^(*&^%$#$%!!!

[Cajungator26]

The Big (NY) Truck is rollin now.

And notice in the link, if you want to, 3rd place finisher Dynamic Wayne is by NY based Eltish. So there.

http://www.nybreds.com/

You all make some good points and I understand your insight. #$%^(*&^%$#$%!!!

Don't forget about Spanky Fischbein (another Hook and Ladder.) :p

[sumitas]

I saw Hook And Ladder one time in the paddock at the spa. Kimmel was saddling him. As I recall he was slightly built.

[Cajungator26]

I saw Hook And Ladder one time in the paddock at the spa. Kimmel was saddling him. As I recall he was slightly built.

He's a nice looking hoss IMO. Pretty 'racey' looking, but he seems to have a decent amount of bone and a nice shoulder.

http://www.sequelstallionsny.com/images/laklandnorth.com/horses/475_Hook_and_Ladder_Conformation_large.jpg

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

There were quite a few horses at the two-year-olds in training sales last year by Hook and Ladder that could really run. Some of them are nice hosses.

[Cajungator26]

Sons of Dixieland Band seem to do OK at stud... I wonder how the Bowman's Band two year olds are going to look this year when they hit the track.

[sumitas]

Here's a neat bloodhorse comparison of the 2...
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/CompareStallions/default.aspx

note: Scroll down to the comparison section. If you enter Hook And Ladder you can then compare him to Bowmans Band, etc. Purty cool.

H & L has done well. He deserves credit. You'd think the Bowman's Band juvis should do well also. BB looks stockier than H&L.

[WarranT]

Hook and Ladder was a sire that I said to watch out for when I saw some of his offspring at the two-year-olds in training sales last year. Some of them are nice hosses.


AMEN

i hit a large ticket with I promise at belmont way back when
http://www.nybreds.com/racing/entries_results_breeder.html

[pgiaco]

The NY State Breeding and Development Fund provides an incentive to breed to NY stallions. If you breed to a NY stallion your breeder/owner awards are 20% of purses earned, and if by an out of state stallion the award is 10% of purse earned. The breeder has the option of trying for the bigger breeder awards or higher quality stallions. There is nothing devious about the rules. They are very straightforward.

[SOREHOOF]

Are CalBreds any better?

[sumitas]

Thank you pgiaco. I am not an expert on any breeding rules and I appreciate your educating myself. That rule makes a whole lot of sense to me.

I'm here to learn not just shout.

[pgiaco]

Glad I can help, Sumitas. NY does a good job of trying to level the playing field as far as breeding goes. It sometimes is a difficult decision, Since I run some of my NY breds out of state I tend toward the KY stallions. But I have a couple of Catienus babies (before he left NY) and I am a fan of Freud and I'm sending a mare to Hook and Ladder this year.

[SOREHOOF]

Sunriver is standiing in N.Y.

[SOREHOOF]

I'ts only going to get better when the slot money starts rolling in.

[outofthebox]

Glad I can help, Sumitas. NY does a good job of trying to level the playing field as far as breeding goes. It sometimes is a difficult decision, Since I run some of my NY breds out of state I tend toward the KY stallions. But I have a couple of Catienus babies (before he left NY) and I am a fan of Freud and I'm sending a mare to Hook and Ladder this year.
Funny Pgiaco, i have a Freud weanling and the mare has a Hook in her belly ready to drop...

[sumitas]

Glad I can help, Sumitas. NY does a good job of trying to level the playing field as far as breeding goes. It sometimes is a difficult decision, Since I run some of my NY breds out of state I tend toward the KY stallions. But I have a couple of Catienus babies (before he left NY) and I am a fan of Freud and I'm sending a mare to Hook and Ladder this year.

You are a super owner and as always, thank you for a dialogue. Catienus is rock solid, Hook And Ladder is out of the gates fast as a sire, and Desert Warrior has put up some impressive numbers early. I do believe NY has never had a deeper sire corps than now.

Will your Teuflesberg, one of this board's most popular 3 year olds of last year, be a NY bred ?

[Linny]

The roster in NY keeps improving. Some nice horses have been lost to sale, transfer or death over the last decade or so but new young stallions have taken up residence.
Hook and Ladder is off to a great start but like Precise End a few years ago, a great start often fortells a rapid sale and transfer out of NY. I thought that stallions like Precise End and City Zip could have been very important tallions had they stayed in NY. It's typical of the market though that (like a racehorse) a hot young sire is a volatile commodity and owners need to sell when they can.
Belong To Me has been only a modest success since leaving NY. I'd have liked to have seen CZ and PE stick around.

[pgiaco]

You are a super owner and as always, thank you for a dialogue. Catienus is rock solid, Hook And Ladder is out of the gates fast as a sire, and Desert Warrior has put up some impressive numbers early. I do believe NY has never had a deeper sire corps than now.

Will your Teuflesberg, one of this board's most popular 3 year olds of last year, be a NY bred ?
Yes, the Teuflesberg-True Advantage foal will be a NY bred, also toying with the idea of sending a With Approval mare to him.
I agree that the NY stallion roster is getting deeper, but the loss of Catienus to KY hurts. Utopia and the rest of the new stallions have big shoes to fill.

[pgiaco]

Super owner?!? I might have to print that and hang it on the refrigerator. Thanks Sumitas.

[Cannon Shell]

Yes, the Teuflesberg-True Advantage foal will be a NY bred, also toying with the idea of sending a With Approval mare to him.
I agree that the NY stallion roster is getting deeper, but the loss of Catienus to KY hurts. Utopia and the rest of the new stallions have big shoes to fill.
It is going to be hard to attract top stallion prospects to NY simply because the majority of 'real NYbred mares' owners arent willing to pay high stud fees. A vast majority of the KY sired NYbreds arent resident NY mares, just people playing the system. State bred programs are great for smaller owners in many ways but in some ways do not give great incentive for mare owners to upgrade their quality. I have asked a number of top stud farms in KY why they dont set up smaller operations in NY and they all pretty much thought that the majority of breeders wont support a $15000 and up stallion. Maybe they are not correct but it seems odd that no one is really trying especially in light of the slot money that is looming.

[Kasept]

Super owner?!? I might have to print that and hang it on the refrigerator. Thanks Sumitas.
And of course a 'Super Owner' can only utilize a 'Super Trainer'... And luckily... One returns Thursday!!

He's slimmer, trimmer, leaner, meaner.. Tanned and taught.. Fit and ready..

SCIACCA.. He's back!

"And this time it's personal..."

[sumitas]

YAYYY...how about a swim shoot shot for the ladies :D

http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/lou_ferrigno.jpg

[Kasept]

YAYYY...how about a swim shoot shot for the ladies :D

http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/lou_ferrigno.jpg
Hysterical. You know, Ferrigno, from the neck up, actually DOES resemble Sciacca!

[Antitrust32]

Hysterical. You know, Ferrigno, from the neck up, actually DOES resemble Sciacca!


yeah he does!! LOL

[pgiaco]

Hysterical. You know, Ferrigno, from the neck up, actually DOES resemble Sciacca!
Ferrigno has a LOT more hair.

[pgiaco]

It is going to be hard to attract top stallion prospects to NY simply because the majority of 'real NYbred mares' owners arent willing to pay high stud fees. A vast majority of the KY sired NYbreds arent resident NY mares, just people playing the system. State bred programs are great for smaller owners in many ways but in some ways do not give great incentive for mare owners to upgrade their quality. I have asked a number of top stud farms in KY why they dont set up smaller operations in NY and they all pretty much thought that the majority of breeders wont support a $15000 and up stallion. Maybe they are not correct but it seems odd that no one is really trying especially in light of the slot money that is looming.
Cannon, I guess the farms in KY would know better, but I know several NY breeders who would support a higher end stallion or 2 in NY, especially with the looming slot money. By the time you ship a mare and pay KY sales tax on the season the cost becomes quite prohibitive. I for one would definitely support an upper end stallion that stood here.

[Cannon Shell]

Cannon, I guess the farms in KY would know better, but I know several NY breeders who would support a higher end stallion or 2 in NY, especially with the looming slot money. By the time you ship a mare and pay KY sales tax on the season the cost becomes quite prohibitive. I for one would definitely support an upper end stallion that stood here.
I know several people that would and some of the lesser KY stallions would be great fits in NY. Louisiana is another state that needs stallion support especially considering their breedback rules are very rigid. They have a great program but the stallions are horrible.

[Scav]

I know several people that would and some of the lesser KY stallions would be great fits in NY. Louisiana is another state that needs stallion support especially considering their breedback rules are very rigid. They have a great program but the stallions are horrible.

Breedback rules?

[Cannon Shell]

Breedback rules?
You need to get a second date before you understand

[Scav]

You need to get a second date before you understand

I am literally speechless right now, all my comebacks that I have typed don't do your response its worthyness....

[Cannon Shell]

I am literally speechless right now, all my comebacks that I have typed don't do your response its worthyness....
This is enough...

[Scav]

This is enough...

it doesn't happen very often so enjoy it

[PSH]

It also seems that whenever a NY Bred sire gets good that they are subject to be moved to Kentucky (or elsewhere) and then have their stud fee raised. City Zip is a prime example of this in the past couple of years.

Also, am i correct that the majority of those who breed to a stallion in NY generally do not pay full stated stud fees but work out a deal????

PSH

[ELA]

Of course, there have of course been a few cases where, when a stallion does well, they are relocated out of NY. Catienus attracted a lot of attention when he stood in NY, and had a couple of runners out there in his first crop (with a maiden running 3rd in the Bemont Stakes). There was a lot of back and forth as to whether or not he would stay in NY for the next season, and I would some people here know what went on with that decision and what was behind it.

City Zip was another, and while he became an attractive commodity, what was also going on was that the farm where he stood was being sold, so I am not sure which came first -- the chicken or the egg, so to speak.

NY stallions can be like any others, except the top tier, high demand stallions. There can be deals, foal shares, discounted breedings, etc. However, I don't think this is a function of it being NY, but more it being a function of the industry in general. Of course you are not going to see any deals floating around on AP Indy, LOL.

The "breed-back" rules are intended to allow the system to have integrity, and to add value. The same could be said for the step level of NY award money.

Eric

[pgiaco]

Also, am i correct that the majority of those who breed to a stallion in NY generally do not pay full stated stud fees but work out a deal????

PSH
That can be true of stallions anywhere. It depends on a number of things including breeding multiple mares, return customers, demand for the stallion etc.

[Linny]

Deal making occurs at all levels.
Remember that the $20k stallion is royalty in NY. In KY he's a "moderate" price point. I'm sure that there are a few breeders in NY who would support a higher end stallion but "a few" isn't really enough to make it worth it. With the volume of mares available in KY and only a handful of NY breeders vowing to commit to a stallion who is not especially expensive in KY, it's not a great deal.

[Cannon Shell]

Deal making occurs at all levels.
Remember that the $20k stallion is royalty in NY. In KY he's a "moderate" price point. I'm sure that there are a few breeders in NY who would support a higher end stallion but "a few" isn't really enough to make it worth it. With the volume of mares available in KY and only a handful of NY breeders vowing to commit to a stallion who is not especially expensive in KY, it's not a great deal.
the $20k stallion in NY doesnt currently exist. But the points that were made above are true and the fact is that non 1st year stallion at that level is usually a pretty negotiable price

[Cannon Shell]

Which stallions do you have in mind?
Mutakddim, Petionville, Northern Afleet, Honour and Glory, Sir Cherokee

[Cannon Shell]

All of them would fare well here, I suspect.

Apart from his effectiveness as a stallion, I was a HUGE fan of Honour and Glory.

I do not have numbers available, but aren't the first four stallions capable of siring dirt and turf progeny? (I'm unfamiliar with Sir Cherokee as a stallion.)
Mutakddim is a really good racehorse sire as is Petionville but neither are real commercial. They wuld be great in NY. I am not a big fan of Northern Afleet and I dont think he is a good fit as a KY stallion, more of regional type. Honour and Glory is a decent sire who ould also be better making NYBreds. I like Sir Cherokee as a sire but I dont know if he will get a fair shake in KY. I always considered Cape Town as an ideal NY type sire since he is pretty versitile but he has fertility issues

[Danzig]

I suspect that you have heard of longtime drive-time WFAN radio personality Mike Francesa. He is a big race fan and owns a few horses in the name of Summer Wind Stable, I believe.

In the spring of 2003, a friend of mine introduced me to him in the owners' boxes at Belmont. He said something about Mutakddim that I found perplexing, and I remember it clearly.

Francesa said that a Fasig-Tipton representative told him that at the time (2003), there was a lack of people who wanted to breed to him because of his the muslim reference to his name. I had a very hard time believing that people wouldn't want to breed to a horse for this reason. It sounded bizarre.

Did you ever hear anything along those lines about Mutakddim about five years ago?

it does sound bizarre. and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it were true.

[Pedigree Ann]

. I do believe NY has never had a deeper sire corps than now. ?

I have to presume you talking 20th Century, or post-WWII, or something like that. One of the greatest pre-Civil War horses, in the days of 4 mile heat races, was the New York-bred American Eclipse, who also stood in NY, with his son Medoc, both of whom became leading US sires.

[freddymo]

Mutakddim is a really good racehorse sire as is Petionville but neither are real commercial. They wuld be great in NY. I am not a big fan of Northern Afleet and I dont think he is a good fit as a KY stallion, more of regional type. Honour and Glory is a decent sire who ould also be better making NYBreds. I like Sir Cherokee as a sire but I dont know if he will get a fair shake in KY. I always considered Cape Town as an ideal NY type sire since he is pretty versitile but he has fertility issues

Mutakddim could be a very good sire if he had better sponsorship..Moving him to NY with more crappy mares want help.

Getting a Straightman to NY would be great but I don't see him leaving Fla anytime soon.

[Coach Pants]

I have to presume you talking 20th Century, or post-WWII, or something like that. One of the greatest pre-Civil War horses, in the days of 4 mile heat races, was the New York-bred American Eclipse, who also stood in NY, with his son Medoc, both of whom became leading US sires.

Yeah I watched a reenactment of some of his races on The History Channel 5: The Ocho a few weeks ago. Outstanding horse.

[Linny]

The first Belmont was won by a NY bred filly, Ruthless but she hardly has an impact on todays breed.

In the above post about $20k stallions in NY, I should have said "a $20k stallion would be royalty in NY. I agree about Mutakkdim. He's a very underrated horse.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Francesa said that a Fasig-Tipton representative told him that at the time (2003), there was a lack of people who wanted to breed to him because of his the muslim reference to his name. I had a very hard time believing that people wouldn't want to breed to a horse for this reason. It sounded bizarre.

Did you ever hear anything along those lines about Mutakddim about five years ago?

There was a Group 1 winning horse in Europe in the 90's named Hamas. He was sired by Danzig and out of the legendary broodmare Fall Aspen.

While a giant bust at stud, interestingly enough, the most accomplished son of Hamas so far is Istanbul horse of the year Akindayim. He's won over 20 races and made what amounts to $950,000. Akindayim races are on YouTube - including his win in the Group 1 Sultan Mehmet The Conqueror Cup.

The only real good horse I ever remember Mutakddim siring was Lady Tak, and she was only a $7,500 yearling.

[Cannon Shell]

Mutakddim could be a very good sire if he had better sponsorship..Moving him to NY with more crappy mares want help.

Getting a Straightman to NY would be great but I don't see him leaving Fla anytime soon.
The mares he gets now are NY level mares and he would probably wind up with better mares there

[AeWingnut]

Mutakddim is a good All-Weather sire.

He would be better off in a state with all-weather tracks.

[sumitas]

Was Lady Tak the one that upset Dream Supreme at the spa?

The sire thing, Mutakddim has good, solid numbers across the board. I'm still excited about Golden Missile in NY.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Did Fall Aspen produce Woodman, or did she produce Timber Country (or both)?

She produced Timber Country - no for Woodman. Really, she has to be considered one of the greatest broodmares ever. She's the dam of...

* Northern Apsen (Grade 1 winner in America, Gr 2 winner in Europe)

* Elle Seule (Group 2 winner in France. Dam of 2 Gr 1 winners)

* Mazzacano (Gr 3 winner, 2nd in Gr 1)

* Colorado Dancer (Gr 2 winner, dam of the great Dubai Millennium)

* Hamas (Gr 1 winner)

* Fort Wood (Gr 1 winner. Sire of Horse Chestnut)

* Timber Country (Won GR 1 BC Juvenile and Preakness)

* Prince of Thieves (3rd in the Kentucky Derby)

* Bianconi (Gr 2 winner)



Lady Tak was a nice horse. She ran in the Ballerina (?) at Saratoga -- I wast there and I thought that it was Travers Day -- and I remember a friend of mine telling me that she was going to be right on the pace, if not the pacesetter. I thought that he was crazy, since she had emerged from a series of route races, if memory serves.

Sure enough, she was right on top of the pace, and I think that she had the lead after a half in 45 and change.

She had an explosive turn move for a speed miler type horse - I know she won both the Test and Ballerina at Saratoga - but I think she actually ran a 23 flat 3rd quarter when she won the Test...it probably is the fastest 3rd quarter this decade by any horse in a 7f furlong Saratoga race.

I'm not sure if her Ballerina win was Travers day or not....could have been the day after the Travers maybe.

[sumitas]

Bianconi, Cozzene, and the La. sire Easyfromthgitgo (Dehere) all hail from the 4m family with their nexus being the great War Admiral broodmare Portage.

Insofar as sons of Seeking The Gold which Mutakddim , Petionville, Cape Town are, NY has none. Seeking the Gold is critcized for producing fragile offspring but Mutakddim (17 starts) seems to produce durable types.

Only 1 NY sire has Seeking The Gold as his broodmare sire, Nunzio (Holy Bull).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The Test is early in the meet - but that was the race she was coming out of routes into like you mentioned. Just checked her pp's.

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/ladytak.pdf

It shows her selling for 75K - but that was at a 2yo in training sale after she worked fast. She was a 7.5K yearling originally.

[sumitas]

$7.5k yearling. Amazing.

Let me add a tidbit to some of the interesting points in this thread. The most expensive sires in NY are standardbred.

http://www.harnessracing.com/sstation.php?action=true&name=&farm=&fee=10000%7C30000&location=NY

Sunriver is this year's most expensive NY thoroughbred sire at $15,000. The only one over $10,000. (I prefer the 4 fig sires).

[ELA]

Actually, I think a couple of high-quality, more expensive stallions in NY could in fact improve the program. If you had some higher quality stallions in NY, the "breed-back" rule would be more effective, in reality -- more attractive.

A new stallion in NY who I think could be interesting is Patriot Act. He's a son of A.P. Indy and I think he comes from old Fred Hooper family/breeding. He's got strong pedigree and has some incredible support behind him. Will Farish and Lane's End are supporting the horse and syndicated him with some very strong breeders, real breeders. He could be an excellent outcross stallion (I think he is a half to the dam Student Council (who is by Kingmambo).

The dam's side is pretty strong -- I think a sister to Patriot Act, a graded stakes winner is the dam of graded stakes winner Gradepoint (also by A.P. Indy, I think), and is also the dam of Student Council (Kingmambo). I think that's how the pedigree plays out. Another offspring I think is the dam of Stephen Got Even, and maybe Don't Get Mad.

Anyway, I think this horse could get some good mares, and might be attractive to people looking to breed in NY, who might not have before.

Eric

[Linny]

I see that Patriot Act is listed at a $6k fee. I recall hm as a long time G1 placed maiden after he was 2nd or 3rd to a fast Lukas 2yo in a KY G1. If Farish and some of his partners support him with well bred mares, he could be an interesting stallion. His female family appears to be a bit of an outcross for alot of the Farish and partners mares, though being my Indy, he still carries alot of that "Lane's End" blood.

What are the breeders' thoughts about Utopia. I find it intersting that his Northern Dancer is through Northern Taste, a stallion who's blood is unknown in the US. Forty Niner didn't become the sire of sires that alot of people expected but he has a few useful horses.

The other new stallion of interest to me is Defer. At $6500, I think he brings alot of pedigree to the table. Though he never really live up to expectations he was hardly a disaster. He was a pretty good 2yo but was still running well later in his career. Danzig means grass but it also means "mud" which of course we get in abundance in NY racing.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The problem with stallion prospects like Defer and Patriot Act is that they were both very slow plodding horses...I wouldn't expect a whole lot from either one.

City Zip was the perfect stallion you'd look for in a region like New York.

* He was a brilliantly fast early developing horse

* He was very sound and accomplished (made 23 starts in 2 years of racing, won 6 Graded Stakes, fired on short rest)

* Figued to be the kind of sire who would be above average with turf runners.

City Zip stood in NY and started covering mares in 2002 (before his half brother Ghostzapper ever debuted)

The combonation of him doing a solid job while standing for $7,500 in NY and with Ghostzapper developing into a Horse of the Year and hot stallion prospect - is what got him out of NY and into Ky I would think.

[Linny]

Defer was a pretty good 2yo and Danzig is a speedy sireline. I tend to think that if he'd been with a trainer other than Shug (who I like, don't get me wrong) whose horses rarely have that sharp early speed, he might have had a different trajectory. If he'd been with Assmussen or Pletcher or Jerkens etc. He might have been "sharper" at 2. (I like Shug, but in the quest for a classic 3yo, the Phipps' don't seem to ask for any speed in their 2yos.)
Agreed about PA in terms of plodding sireline but the Copelans have speed.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Defer was a pretty good 2yo and Danzig is a speedy sireline.

I remember Defer running in just two stakes at age 2 - he got beat by a pole by Rockport Harbor in the Nashua with a 72 Beyer for running 2nd, and he won the slowest LRL Futurity in memory over a horse named Funk.

His pedigree is great and all - but he is a long way away from being the kind of brilliant horse that tends to do best at stud.

[Bigsmc]

Mutakddim, Petionville, Northern Afleet, Honour and Glory, Sir Cherokee

We sent our mare to Honour and Glory this year. She is in foal and will ship back to NY soon.

[sumitas]

That is wonderful. All the best with the happy mom and foal.