Denis of Cork <96 BSF>

[pgardn]

Excuse my ignorance:

Why is Albarado on and not Calvin?
And Albarado is not on Sacred Journey...

[Cajungator26]

Excuse my ignorance:

Why is Albarado on and not Calvin?
And Albarado is not on Sacred Journey...

http://www.drf.com/news/article/92261.html

http://www.oaklawn.com/NotesQuotesArchive.aspx?Id=17

[dylbert]

Excuse my ignorance:

Why is Albarado on and not Calvin?
And Albarado is not on Sacred Journey...Calvin "Boo" Borel kept his mount from Delta Jackpot, Turf War, in lieu of Denis of Cork ride. Both horses should do well tomorrow.

I attended Jackpot and Turf War closed like runaway freight train in dead heat with Z Humor. So far, none of the Jackpot horses have run well. Z Humor did not take kindly to Tampa Bay Downs' surface in Sam F. Davis Stakes yesterday.

Denis of Cork has looked visually impressive in his efforts. Southwest Stakes finally gets deserved Grade 3 status and may have drawn better field than some Grade I or II races on this year's Derby Trail.

Good luck tomorrow...

[pgardn]

Thanks both.
I completely forgot about Borel
making this decision. Old age.

It is interesting how often jockies
make these decisions and get on
the back of the loser.
We will see.
Should be an interesting race.
I look foward to the replay.

[pick4]

I wagered on Denis Of Cork when he ran on 1/19 and I recall that it looked like he was going to blow by the field and win by open lengths but he hung and barely won. I hope I'm correct in my accessment of this colt. I'd like to see a more aggresive finish. In his defense he ran the entire race four wide until he was in the stretch when he was in the three path.

[pgardn]

Poor Calvin.

Wrong train.

Good job pik4

[wac]

I was at work so did not get to see this race but i have a small future bet on "cork" and was wondering what was the visual impression of the race? From looking at drf charts it looks like track was playing to closers so im wondering if it was a race to be excited. I was also surprised to see this horse go off at almost 5-1 with all the "buzz" about him.

[pgardn]

I was at work so did not get to see this race but i have a small future bet on "cork" and was wondering what was the visual impression of the race? From looking at drf charts it looks like track was playing to closers so im wondering if it was a race to be excited. I was also surprised to see this horse go off at almost 5-1 with all the "buzz" about him.

Race set up very well for Cork.
The pacesetter Sacred, put up unmanigable
fractions and was followed. Cork showed the
ability to stay in striking range by the turn home as Sacred
collapsed and won easily.
The race set up for other horses as well, so I would
be happy if I had this horse.

[wac]

Thanks pgardn, i know its a long way till KD but i would like to have something to get excited about as we get closer. I have future bets on blackberry road, colonel john, dennis of cork, monba and zhumor. not looking that good but you never know it sure makes watching the races more exciting.

[miraja2]

Here's the replay in case you haven't seen it yet. he ran a good race. If he can continue to improve he's got a good shot IMO.

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2008/videos/579
I guess he probably does have a good shot, because....well because....this crop STILL doesn't appear to be particulary deep or strong at this point.
But for a horse with his style - and given the pace of the race, and the trip he had - it didn't look to me like he was moving very fast down the stretch. What was his time for final 1/4? It couldn't have been particularly fast.
The horse on the lead was completely cooked, and while Denis went by him, he didn't seem to have a lot left.
I really don't know what to think of any of these 3yos. Who knows...maybe the colt from Peru will win this year's Kentucky Derby.

[horseofcourse]

I guess he probably does have a good shot, because....well because....this crop STILL doesn't appear to be particulary deep or strong at this point.
But for a horse with his style - and given the pace of the race, and the trip he had - it didn't look to me like he was moving very fast down the stretch. What was his time for final 1/4? It couldn't have been particularly fast.
The horse on the lead was completely cooked, and while Denis went by him, he didn't seem to have a lot left.
I really don't know what to think of any of these 3yos. Who knows...maybe the colt from Peru will win this year's Kentucky Derby.


I don't know what his final quarter was. You guys can figure it out I guess. 6f was run in 1:10.83 and the final time was 1:37.59. Denis of Cork was 9 lengths back at the 6f mark. So those that know how to figure that out can figure out how fast he ran his final quarter. In my opinion, I thought his race was every bit as impressive as Pyro in the Risen Star...and most likely more so.

[TitanSooner]

24 and 4/5

[free25]

Officially, this is my derby horse.... I love small stables like Dave Caroll who can pay attention to their horses. In my humble opinion, this is why Todd Pletcher has struggled in the big ones. Love him, but attention to detail rules in training......

[Kasept]

Denis of Cork rec'd a 96 BSF for yesterday's Southwest effort..

Those that are wanting to embrace David Carroll's exciting colt should not be concerned about the 'finishing kick/closing times' as Oaklawn is a bizarre oval when it comes to this analysis. Remember back to the Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones seasons because the final quarters have frequently seemed slow in this series. Randy Moss discovered years ago that the stretch at Hot Springs runs slightly uphill, and then there's the matter of the short stretch.

The ease with which Denis of Cork won this race is was what was impressive. It was very similar to his debut win. Albarado, who is also committed to stablemate Blackberry Road, suits this horse very nicely. Those that want to think the race 'set up' for Denis of Cork should appreciate that it set up for the rest of the off pace types and they didn't come close. Denis was able to maintain a semblance of contact with the 4 winging ahead of him in the first half of the race, and then had the where with all to run them down.

There are few candidates out there on the Derby Trail as appealing as this colt. The connections are exceedingly embraceable with David Carroll, Easy Goer's gallop boy, at the head of the team. The owner's, M/M Warren of St. Liam fame, are as gracious as any in the game. Very pleased to see him continue forward...

[justindew]

Denis of Cork rec'd a 96 BSF for yesterday's Southwest effort..

Those that are wanting to embrace David Carroll's exciting colt should not be concerned about the 'finishing kick/closing times' as Oaklawn is a bizarre oval when it comes to this analysis. Remember back to the Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones seasons because the final quarters have frequently seemed slow in this series. Randy Moss discovered years ago that the stretch at Hot Springs runs slightly uphill, and then there's the matter of the short stretch.

The ease with which Denis of Cork won this race is was what was impressive. It was very similar to his debut win. Albarado, who is also committed to stablemate Blackberry Road, suits this horse very nicely. Those that want to think the race 'set up' for Denis of Cork should appreciate that it set up for the rest of the off pace types and they didn't come close. Denis was able to maintain a semblance of contact with the 4 winging ahead of him in the first half of the race, and then had the where with all to run them down.

There are few candidates out there on the Derby Trail as appealing as this colt. The connections are exceedingly embraceable with David Carroll, Easy Goer's gallop boy, at the head of the team. The owner's, M/M Warren of St. Liam fame, are as gracious as any in the game. Very pleased to see him continue forward...

Solid effort, but would you agree that the runner-up is no world-beater? He's probably in the lower tier of West Coast Derby hopefuls.

[Kasept]

Considering that most seemed to like the quality of the field coming in, how does this get brought up after the fact? What does West Coast lower tier mean and what's the difference anyway? He was within a length or so of Colonel John in the Cash Call and beaten 3L for everything there... He couldn't keep up in the San Rafael, but stayed on nicely yesterday getting back on dirt for the first time since September as a 2yo. With moves to and from the synthetic surfaces, it's hard to know what any of the California based horses actually are.

I recall that when Denis beat Unbridled Vicar in the FG ALW we heard the same song. Unbridled Vicar came back and ran very nicely though in the Risen Star, no?

I'd say it's much more significant that Denis of Cork continues to do anything required of him to win despite spotting experience each time he's run.

[justindew]

Considering that most seemed to like the quality of the field coming in, how does this get brought up after the fact? What does West Coast lower tier mean and what's the difference anyway? He was within a length or so of Colonel John in the Cash Call and beaten 3L for everything there... He couldn't keep up in the San Rafael, but stayed on nicely yesterday getting back on dirt for the first time since September as a 2yo. With moves to and from the synthetic surfaces, it's hard to know what any of the California based horses actually are.

I recall that when Denis beat Unbridled Vicar in the FG ALW we heard the same song. Unbridled Vicar came back and ran very nicely though in the Risen Star, no?

I'd say it's much more significant that Denis of Cork continues to do anything required of him to win despite spotting experience each time he's run.

I never said I liked the field. I have always thought Turf War was a phony. And I can't believe that Lukas horse wasn't 15-1. I bet Sacred Journey because he was 14-1 at the time, and then he went off at 9-1. Dagger!

I guess by "West Coast lower tier", I mean I can probably name 15 Derby hopefuls in California who are better than Sierra Sunset. And Massive Drama isn't even one of them becasue he isn't in CA anymore.

Don't get me wrong. Sierra Sunset looked great against three foes at Bay Meadows in that September race you mentioned. But I think the jury is still out on Denis of Cork. All things being equal, I doubt he would be among the top four betting interests in the Fountain of Youth on Saturday, and I doubt he would hit the board.

[justindew]

....also, weren't there like 18 horses within 3 lengths of the Cash Call winner?

[Kasept]

You're right about the first part, but I'm not so sure about the second. Who are the killers in there? Court Vision? Monba? You can have them both. Adriano's a turf horse. I'm really high on Elysium Fields, but he's just a maiden winner. And then you have Zito's pair.
Make the Point.. from KMc there too.

[mes5107]

I was at work so did not get to see this race but i have a small future bet on "cork" and was wondering what was the visual impression of the race? From looking at drf charts it looks like track was playing to closers so im wondering if it was a race to be excited. I was also surprised to see this horse go off at almost 5-1 with all the "buzz" about him.

I kind of got the opposite from looking at the charts. Most of the horses that seemed to close were good horses and were expected to do so. I thought a lot of the longshots seemed to hang on more than they should have.

Of course Sacred Journey put up crazy fractions in this race with no pressure from behind, so the race was not going to go his way, but he did still hang for third.

[Coach Pants]

So if this horse is one of the top 5 contenders for the derby then we're looking at a 2:03 and change maybe 2:04 race?

Wow. Can't wait.

[2 Dollar Bill]

Reading thru this thread, and the "" this is my derby horse"", ect... My question is [ with all the derby horses pointed to first sat. of may ]
"" Have we seen the 2008 derby winning horse run this year ..yet ? ""

[Coach Pants]

Reading thru this thread, and the "" this is my derby horse"", ect... My question is [ with all the derby horses pointed to first sat. of may ]
"" Have we seen the 2008 derby winning horse run this year ..yet ? ""
NO

[SniperSB23]

So if this horse is one of the top 5 contenders for the derby then we're looking at a 2:03 and change maybe 2:04 race?

Wow. Can't wait.

You are using an 8 furlong time at Oaklawn to predict the time for the Derby? It was about the exact same time as Smarty Jones for what that is worth.

[2 Dollar Bill]

NO

Glad to see I wasnt the only one thinking that way also !

[Coach Pants]

You are using an 8 furlong time at Oaklawn to predict the time for the Derby? It was about the exact same time as Smarty Jones for what that is worth.

Wow.

[miraja2]

Denis of Cork rec'd a 96 BSF for yesterday's Southwest effort..

Those that are wanting to embrace David Carroll's exciting colt should not be concerned about the 'finishing kick/closing times' as Oaklawn is a bizarre oval when it comes to this analysis. Remember back to the Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones seasons because the final quarters have frequently seemed slow in this series. Randy Moss discovered years ago that the stretch at Hot Springs runs slightly uphill
Oh yeah, now that you say it, I kind of remember hearing about that uphill thing before. His race still didn't seem that impressive to me given the suspect nature of the competition, but a 96 certainly makes him one of the top contenders at this point.

[blackthroatedwind]

Thanks...forgot about him. I wonder if he'll get the 9 furlongs.

I don't wonder.....I find it highly unlikely.

[blackthroatedwind]

Considering that most seemed to like the quality of the field coming in, how does this get brought up after the fact?


" Most " were wrong going into the race if they considered this a quality field. What it was, however, was a good mix and match of horses coming from different races, distances, and jurisdictions. However, there were no horses that screamed " quality " going into the race.

There might, however, be one coming out. But, like others, considering the decent performance chasing by the second finisher, and his resume coming in, I will withhold judgement on Dennis of Cork. He did run well though and in a year that is light on good 3YO performances he certainly looks promising.

[Oaklawnfan]

I had a little different take on the race. I thought it was interesting how he was an up close 4th early. As the leader blazed on, Denis of Cork began dropping back outside of horses. Launched his bid wide and appeared to me at least that he was tons the best. I thought the run he put in from the far turn home was quite impressive and he has now handled 3 different tracks, including Churchill. Maybe I'm grasping for a contender also, but a lot of people were real down on him after the allowance win and he crushed the field yesterday. he at least appears to be improving, which at this point is a very good sign.
I loved this horse from the begining, partly because of the regional connections and the story behind his name. His impressive two previous wins and now this one makes you want to jump on his bandwagon early. I am curious to see if they run him back in the Rebel, and who will ship in to go against him.:confused:

[Danzig]

golden yank is supposed to make his three year old debut in the rebel. there's been a lot of buzz about him, so i'm anxious to see if it's warranted.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

" Most " were wrong going into the race if they considered this a quality field. What it was, however, was a good mix and match of horses coming from different races, distances, and jurisdictions. However, there were no horses that screamed " quality " going into the race.

There might, however, be one coming out. But, like others, considering the decent performance chasing by the second finisher, and his resume coming in, I will withhold judgement on Dennis of Cork. He did run well though and in a year that is light on good 3YO performances he certainly looks promising.
what would giant moon do to dennis of cork?

[blackthroatedwind]

what would giant moon do to dennis of cork?


Lose to him.

[MisterB]

Wasn't Corks last race a Clue? Went four wide the whole trip, flattened a bit, but lasted. Seems many had the right choice.

[SniperSB23]

Wasn't Corks last race a Clue? Went four wide the whole trip, flattened a bit, but lasted. Seems many had the right choice.

He was wide but I was more impressed that he was able to close off of brutally slow fractions. You don't get that done if you are just a plodder. You have to be a legit closer to close on fresh horses in front of you.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Lose to him.
will see after the gotham

[SniperSB23]

will see after the gotham

I don't see how Eaton's Gift winning the Gotham is going to settle anything.

[cakes44]

what would giant moon do to dennis of cork?


Giant Moon = Lawrence the Roman...without the inflated figs.

[blackthroatedwind]

Giant Moon had sweet trips and was able to handle Spanky Fishbien in photos. Icabad Crane is a better horse.

[cakes44]

I think you are discounting Spanky Fishbein too easily. You must not realize that he was trying to cut into a final quarter that was just under 27 seconds.

[SniperSB23]

I think you are discounting Spanky Fishbein too easily. You must not realize that he was trying to cut into a final quarter that was just under 27 seconds.

I think Spanky Fishbein could win an Eclipse and it would still sound insulting to handle him in a photo.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

will see..and gm does not need to win just run well

[Kasept]

will see..and gm does not need to win just run well
Matt-O,

He does have to do something in the Gotham/Wood.. He has no graded earnings yet.

[cakes44]

Why would he need graded earnings from the Gotham when 1st place in the Wood is going to net him $450,000?

[blackthroatedwind]

It happens that this is a year with some very nice NY Bred 3YOs and hopefully they will stick around for some competitive racing later in the year. Rick Schosberg probably doesn't have a bigger fan than me, and I would love to see him have a good horse, but Giant Moon is nothing more than a reasonably talented horse who has very little chance of beating even decent good horses.

I'm sure Rick will do as good a job as possible with Giant Moon. It won't be enough in any TC preps or TC races and I think they will realize that sooner than later. If the Gotham is run on a fair track, with a fairly run race, Giant Moon figures to more than have his hands full.

[King Glorious]

I don't know what his final quarter was. You guys can figure it out I guess. 6f was run in 1:10.83 and the final time was 1:37.59. Denis of Cork was 9 lengths back at the 6f mark. So those that know how to figure that out can figure out how fast he ran his final quarter. In my opinion, I thought his race was every bit as impressive as Pyro in the Risen Star...and most likely more so.

I use .16 per beaten length and using that as a guide, I get his final quarter in 25.32

I'm almost positive that I can walk it that fast.

[SniperSB23]

I use .16 per beaten length and using that as a guide, I get his final quarter in 25.32

I'm almost positive that I can walk it that fast.

You should be a race horse then since the horse you have as the 4th best since 1986 finished the exact same race in 26 1/5.

[King Glorious]

You should be a race horse then since the horse you have as the 4th best since 1986 finished the exact same race in 26 1/5.

The 2004 Southwest was run in 2004. The 2008 edition was just run a few days ago. I'm not sure at all what one has to do with the other? Did they run the same opening fractions? Did they run against the same kind of competition? Were the riders of both asking them the same question down the lane? Also, whether or not Smarty ran it in 26 1/5 or 35 1/5 is beside the point. All that you are point out is that both of them finished in slow time. Smarty's time doesn't make Dennis' fast.

[SniperSB23]

The 2004 Southwest was run in 2004. The 2008 edition was just run a few days ago. I'm not sure at all what one has to do with the other? Did they run the same opening fractions? Did they run against the same kind of competition? Were the riders of both asking them the same question down the lane? Also, whether or not Smarty ran it in 26 1/5 or 35 1/5 is beside the point. All that you are point out is that both of them finished in slow time. Smarty's time doesn't make Dennis' fast.

Smarty got a 95 Beyer and Denis a 96. Smarty's time was a hair quicker so the track was actually a little faster that day if at all different. Check out the closing fractions of every Southwest. They are all slower than that. Lawyer Ron finished in 26 2/5. Using the closing fractions at Oaklawn as if they are conventional fractions is pointless when, as Steve pointed out, the stretch is uphill.

[King Glorious]

Smarty got a 95 Beyer and Denis a 96. Smarty's time was a hair quicker so the track was actually a little faster that day if at all different. Check out the closing fractions of every Southwest. They are all slower than that. Lawyer Ron finished in 26 2/5. Using the closing fractions at Oaklawn as if they are conventional fractions is pointless when, as Steve pointed out, the stretch is uphill.

I agree. I wasn't using the closing fractions to say that he was slow coming home. I was using my eyes. It wouldn't matter to me if the closing fraction was 21 1/5. If I see horses laboring, that's what I'm going to remember, not the fraction.

Also, I'm not sure that this is correct about the Oaklawn stretch and it's come home times. Afleet Alex ran his final 8th of the Arkansas Derby in 11 4/5. Curlin ran his in 12 flat. I don't remember what Smarty's was in the Rebel but it was something crazy fast too. There is no way I believe Alex ran 11 4/5 going uphill. I've always been of the belief that the opposite may be true; that it's slightly downhill which leads to those really fast closing fractions being a little misleading.

[Oaklawnfan]

"Now the east coast handicappers really dig those picks they share, but the Southern boys down in the Natural State have the winners comin' out of no where." "I 've spent a lot of time tryin' to make my picks but I just can't seem to decide" "I guess I'll just get on back to my racing form and let the other posters help me this time. I wish they all could be Derby Trailer's, I wish they could all be Derby Trailer's, I wish they all could be Derby Trailers who shine.

While I don't want any California contenders, this is to the tune of :California Girls."

Thankya, thankya very much.:cool:
This either breaks my maiden, or gets me thrown out.

[SniperSB23]

I agree. I wasn't using the closing fractions to say that he was slow coming home. I was using my eyes. It wouldn't matter to me if the closing fraction was 21 1/5. If I see horses laboring, that's what I'm going to remember, not the fraction.

Also, I'm not sure that this is correct about the Oaklawn stretch and it's come home times. Afleet Alex ran his final 8th of the Arkansas Derby in 11 4/5. Curlin ran his in 12 flat. I don't remember what Smarty's was in the Rebel but it was something crazy fast too. There is no way I believe Alex ran 11 4/5 going uphill. I've always been of the belief that the opposite may be true; that it's slightly downhill which leads to those really fast closing fractions being a little misleading.

I'm not entirely sure what the deal is there but there is certainly a quirk in the closing fractions of the Southwest over the past several years. The Rebel and Arkansas fractions seem more reasonable so I'm not sure what exactly is going on but I know finishing the Southwest in 25 is actually a good finishing time.

[King Glorious]

I'm not entirely sure what the deal is there but there is certainly a quirk in the closing fractions of the Southwest over the past several years. The Rebel and Arkansas fractions seem more reasonable so I'm not sure what exactly is going on but I know finishing the Southwest in 25 is actually a good finishing time.

That's why I say go with your eyes. If your eyes tell you it was slow, don't let them telling you it was 22 1/5 tell you othewise. By the same token, if your eyes tell it was fast, don't let them telling you it was 27 4/5 tell you otherwise. To be honest, I hadn't any idea what the closing time of the race was. I just know that they looked like they were crawling and Dennis appeared to be the only one running and he wasn't even going fast.