Where does RTR belong in history?

[whodey17]

Where does RTR rank among other great fillies? Does she belong in the same sentence as Ruffian, Personal Ensign, Lady's Secret or Kincsem? Does she need to beat the boys again to stamp her place in history, or can she continue to beat up on the girls to prove her place in history? Imagine victories in the KY Oaks, Belmont, CC American Oaks and Breeders Cup Distaff - that is one heck of a resume. Even though her racing career is not over, I think she has to go down as one of the all time greats. Victories in the KY Oaks and Belmont Stakes gives a filly the distiction of one of the all time greats of her sex.

This would be my all time field (for females only) going 1 1/4 on dirt - max 10 horses.

Rags To Riches
Lady's Secret
Ruffian
Personal Ensign
Kincsem
Cicada
Genuine Risk
Winning Colors
Go For Wand
Meadow Star

[MisterB]

Alabama is a nice one before the BC

[Cajungator26]

Where does RTR rank among other great fillies? Does she belong in the same sentence as Ruffian, Personal Ensign, Lady's Secret or Kincsem? Does she need to beat the boys again to stamp her place in history, or can she continue to beat up on the girls to prove her place in history? Imagine victories in the KY Oaks, Belmont, CC American Oaks and Breeders Cup Distaff - that is one heck of a resume. Even though her racing career is not over, I think she has to go down as one of the all time greats. Victories in the KY Oaks and Belmont Stakes gives a filly the distiction of one of the all time greats of her sex.

This would be my all time field (for females only) going 1 1/4 on dirt - max 10 horses.

Rags To Riches
Lady's Secret
Ruffian
Personal Ensign
Kincsem
Cicada
Genuine Risk
Winning Colors
Go For Wand
Meadow Star

I personally think that most of those would have blown her out of the water, but that's just my opinion.

With that said, she's an extremely nice filly. Slow time or not, I was impressed with her in the Belmont. She's a very gritty filly... fought all the way down the stretch. I like that in a racehorse. :cool:

[dellinger63]

IMO Rags isn't yet near Kincsem and Ruffian even if she could go back and win that first race.

[Pedigree Ann]

It is way too soon to put Rags to Riches up in this stratosphere. There are so many great mares you have not included -Pretty Polly, Gallorette, Shuvee, Drumtop among them - who regularly beat up on males of several generations, not just their own. Not to mention Makybe Diva and Sunline just recently from Down Under.

Rags to Riches is the best 3yo filly we've seen since Go for Wand, maybe since Ruffian. I'll go as far as to say that.

By the way, if you include Genuine Risk, why not Bold 'n Determined, who beat GR on the square when they met in the Maskette H? BnD had won the CCA Oaks, Acorn, Santa Susana (aka SA Oaks), etc. and would go on to win the Spinster against her elders.

[miraja2]

She has raced SIX times and is in the middle of her 3yo campaign. It makes absolutely no sense to start trying to figure out where she ranks at this point.
She may never win another race for the rest of her career.
Or..............she may win 3 more G1s including the BC Distaff.
Or anything in between.
That might affect her all-time ranking just a bit wouldn't you think?
So where does she rank in history? ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!!
She isn't done running yet.
Where does this thread rank in a list of all-time threads?
Right near the bottom.

[Antitrust32]

There are a lot of real good filly's that are not on that list. Open Mind, Regret, Shuvee even some of the 90's fillies were real nice

Banshee Breeze
Beautiful Pleasure
Silverbulletday
Serena's Song
Azeri
Hidden Lake
Inside Information
Paseana
Bayakoa
Princess Rooney

Rags to Riches is a real good one that belongs on those lists, but she still has a lot more running to do, and if she keeps dominating, she can go to the top of those lists.

[miraja2]

There are a lot of real good filly's that are not on that list. Open Mind, Regret, Shuvee even some of the 90's fillies were real nice

Banshee Breeze
Beautiful Pleasure
Silverbulletday
Serena's Song
Azeri
Hidden Lake
Inside Information
Paseana
Bayakoa
Princess Rooney

Rags to Riches is a real good one that belongs on those lists, but she still has a lot more running to do, and if she keeps dominating, she can go to the top of those lists.
Oh come on.....Inside Information? All she did was win six G1s, win 14 of her 17 lifetime starts, finish in the money in all 17 of her lifetime starts, and win the Distaff in one of the more impressive performances in the history of the Breeders' Cup.
How could we even begin to put her in the same league as a horse that defeated the mighty Curlin?

[Siena 16]

Ruffian by far was the fastest filly ever to race. And she ran when medication was not as much as a contributor to performance as it is in racing today

[slotdirt]

This is the leader in the clubhouse in prematurity for 2007 threads started.

[Coach Pants]

You can't beat the past. This sport is doomed in that regard. It's like baseball.

[King Glorious]

I think Rags has the potential to be a really top one. But, in my opinion, this is one of the weakest 3yo filly groups I've seen and the colts are not that much better. Street Sense and Curlin have seperated themselves from the pack but what's making them stand out as extra special is because the crop is extremely mediocre. It's always been my opinion that in order for me to say a horse is truly great, he/she's got to do something really special. I don't mean just win the top races because every year, someone is going to win those races. For me, u've either got to beat some really good horses or u've got to run some amazing times/figures. To me, Street Sense has beaten one good horse (Curlin) and Curlin has beaten one good horse (Street Sense) and Rags has beaten one good horse (Curlin). Neither one ran an extremely fast time, ie a 115+ figure.

Getting back to Rags, I don't think she's in the class with some of the best of the past 20 years like Go for Wand, Bayakoa, Personal Ensign, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Paseana, Azeri, Winning Colors, or Serena's Song.

[Antitrust32]

I think Rags has the potential to be a really top one. But, in my opinion, this is one of the weakest 3yo filly groups I've seen and the colts are not that much better. Street Sense and Curlin have seperated themselves from the pack but what's making them stand out as extra special is because the crop is extremely mediocre. It's always been my opinion that in order for me to say a horse is truly great, he/she's got to do something really special. I don't mean just win the top races because every year, someone is going to win those races. For me, u've either got to beat some really good horses or u've got to run some amazing times/figures. To me, Street Sense has beaten one good horse (Curlin) and Curlin has beaten one good horse (Street Sense) and Rags has beaten one good horse (Curlin). Neither one ran an extremely fast time, ie a 115+ figure.

Getting back to Rags, I don't think she's in the class with some of the best of the past 20 years like Go for Wand, Bayakoa, Personal Ensign, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Paseana, Azeri, Winning Colors, or Serena's Song.

I guess you forgot about Tampa and the Preakness, but that's ok, I'll let it slide.

[King Glorious]

I guess you forgot about Tampa and the Preakness, but that's ok, I'll let it slide.

No I didn't. Street Sense got a 102 in Tampa and Curlin got a 111 in the Preakness. That's why I used the 115+ as my barometer. Flat times are one thing but a speed figure helps determine how legit that final time was and how fast the track was. Those are decent numbers for 3yo's but nothing Earth shattering. The top 3yo's of the past few seasons like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, Smarty Jones, Point Given, Funny Cide, Afleet Alex, War Emblem.....they were routinely faster than these two.

[Downthestretch55]

She doesn't belong "in history" until her career is history.
Correct. Thanks for saying the truth.
She could be....but there's a long way ahead.
For sure she made fans, and I think T-bred racing needed this.
Just don't "fall in love". Sometimes they break your heart.

[somerfrost]

Correct. Thanks for saying the truth.
She could be....but there's a long way ahead.
For sure she made fans, and I think T-bred racing needed this.
Just don't "fall in love". Sometimes they break your heart.


I agree, I love racing history and as a hobby, maintain a list of the horses I feel are the 100 "best ever"...it's highly subjective, one person's opinion as I rank horses as far back as Flying Childers and Eclipse and that leaves me open to the question of how on earth I can compare horses which ran a series of two mile heats with today's animals...my answer is a combination of research and a fair degree of "gut instinct"...as I said, highly subjective (but lots of fun). My point being, I NEVER consider a horse until they retire...simply isn't fair. Rags seems to have almost unlimited potential and the Belmont win secures her a place in history (I mean really...first filly to ever win a 12f Belmont) but Roman only assigned a PF of -47 to her, the slowest number he's ever given the Belmont winner (next would be Sarava at -55) and so questions about quality of competition will be raised. Still, she stumbled at the gate, raced wide and was facing colts for the first time so...who knows. If she retired today, I'd have a tough time ranking her above the likes of Inside Information and Winning Colors, certainly not with the likes of Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret.

[pba1817]

No I didn't. Street Sense got a 102 in Tampa and Curlin got a 111 in the Preakness. That's why I used the 115+ as my barometer. Flat times are one thing but a speed figure helps determine how legit that final time was and how fast the track was. Those are decent numbers for 3yo's but nothing Earth shattering. The top 3yo's of the past few seasons like Bernardini, Discreet Cat, Smarty Jones, Point Given, Funny Cide, Afleet Alex, War Emblem.....they were routinely faster than these two.


This current group might be slower, but I remember everyone saying that heading into last years Derby too, and the hearing the same thing the year before that as well.

It all has to do with the lack of seasoning for these young horses. Horses develop over time and with experience, just like any athlete. Look at most of the great distance horses in history, they continued to develop at the end of their 3yo season and beyond. Today, horses are retired at 3.

Those faster times you want to see would come if these horses were running more frequently early in their career. Will you have more physical issues, yes, and that is where the problem lies. Owners are focusing solely on a few select races in a horses career that if they do win them, its like winning the lottery. It has made the owners scared to death to hurt a prospective stallion before he gets to the triple crown races. The opportunity for profit is so huge that it just not worth the risk to them to run their horses as frequently as they did in years past.

I think the only solution is to significantly increase purses in graded stakes races. Making it very difficult for owners to walk away from a huge purse, or a share of it. I think graded purses are too low when compared to top level other sports, and the industry has failed to show a fair increase over the years. The perfect example is the Arlington Million, which is still the Arlington Million 26 years later, what sense does that make? in todays market, it should be the Arlington $10 Million...

The stakes increase could funded by a number of areas, but mostly it should by the people who are going to reap the benefits, the owners and breeders. Putting a take out %, just like we have to pay at the mutual windows, on the live foal fees as well as the auction rings. For as much money is exchanged hands, the % would not have to be much. There are record numbers being spent each year, yet we are seeing less and less Graded quality horses... its only going to get worse until the industry realizes they are sacrificing quality racing for their own greed.

[miraja2]

She doesn't belong "in history" until her career is history.
I don't like the fact that I went on some big lengthy rant and then you come along and nicely sum up everything I was trying to say in one cleverly constructed sentence.

[Downthestretch55]

I agree, I love racing history and as a hobby, maintain a list of the horses I feel are the 100 "best ever"...it's highly subjective, one person's opinion as I rank horses as far back as Flying Childers and Eclipse and that leaves me open to the question of how on earth I can compare horses which ran a series of two mile heats with today's animals...my answer is a combination of research and a fair degree of "gut instinct"...as I said, highly subjective (but lots of fun). My point being, I NEVER consider a horse until they retire...simply isn't fair. Rags seems to have almost unlimited potential and the Belmont win secures her a place in history (I mean really...first filly to ever win a 12f Belmont) but Roman only assigned a PF of -47 to her, the slowest number he's ever given the Belmont winner (next would be Sarava at -55) and so questions about quality of competition will be raised. Still, she stumbled at the gate, raced wide and was facing colts for the first time so...who knows. If she retired today, I'd have a tough time ranking her above the likes of Inside Information and Winning Colors, certainly not with the likes of Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret.
Somerfrost,
Your enthusiasm is quite evident.
Rags could be just what we need after the past couple of years. She has accomplished something very grand, but she's not there yet.
Now, since you're into the history of it, I'll just mention a couple that you might remember.
1) #2 in the 5th on June 5, 2004 (The White Carnation). Her name- Board Elligible.
Sire: Goldminer's Gold, dam Double Boarded by Cormorant.
Trained by James W. Ferraro
Jockey- Javier Castellano
I mention her because seeing her win caused me to decide to buy her half brother, Makeitright.
2) Bourbon Slush (1980). For sure Pedigree Anne will look her up. You'll see names like Crozier, Swaps, Hasty Road, and My Babu. She's the dam of one of my mares, Bourbon Streettune, the mom of Shot o' Bourbon (2yo) and Ciel
Bonne (yearling).

Somer, as I said before, the good that comes from a nice filly winning a big one invigorates our sport, drives our passions, and realizes our dreams.
Race on!!!!! Stumbles and all.:)

DTS

[TenMostWanted]

I personally think that most of those would have blown her out of the water, but that's just my opinion.

With that said, she's an extremely nice filly. Slow time or not, I was impressed with her in the Belmont. She's a very gritty filly... fought all the way down the stretch. I like that in a racehorse. :cool:

exactly!

i'm biased but i think ashado should be mentioned in this thread as well.

[Downthestretch55]

exactly!

i'm biased but i think ashado should be mentioned in this thread as well.
Ashado! Yes! Remember her race with Storm Flag Flying at Toga?

[TenMostWanted]

Ashado! Yes! Remember her race with Storm Flag Flying at Toga?
if they had a nervous & sick smiley, that would've been me.. that's always me when one of my favorites races! :p

she was such a great mare - my personal favorite was her distaff, i almost had a heart attack waiting for her to get a hole off the rail! that's the one i remember best.

still need to get down & stalk her at darley.. shame on me!

& randomly - board elligible, one of the ones i kept tabs on. whatever happened to her?

[brockguy]

lads, its still debatable whether shes the best filly racing at the moment... She's probably the best, yeah, but there are fillies around the world that have done brilliantly this year..

[blackthroatedwind]

Ashado! Yes! Remember her race with Storm Flag Flying at Toga?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I think that one took place in Fantasyland.

[TenMostWanted]

lads, its still debatable whether shes the best filly racing at the moment... She's probably the best, yeah, but there are fillies around the world that have done brilliantly this year..
i do not think she's the best filly in racing, worldwide.

finsceal beo [sp?] is probably the best at this point, rags is definitely up there though - she has to be.

[pba1817]

No, no.... it was at Dreaming Downs on Fantasy Island, with Mr. Rourke as your host and Tattoo calling the race.

[Downthestretch55]

Perhaps I'm wrong but I think that one took place in Fantasyland.
BTW,
You are correct. I always mix up Ashado and Azeri.
I was thinking of Race 9, The Personal Ensign, Aug 27, 2004.
Ashado wasn't in it. Azari was.
My mistake.
Azeri, if I recall, was ridden by Pat Day and trained by D. Wayne Lucas.
And, I'm pretty sure she won over Storm Flag Flying.

[philcski]

Ashado! Yes! Remember her race with Storm Flag Flying at Toga?

Huh? They never raced each other at Saratoga.

[Downthestretch55]

Huh? They never raced each other at Saratoga.
Sorry!
I already admitted my mistake.

[philcski]

Sorry!
I already admitted my mistake.

Ha! No prob. Saw that, my bad for the piling on.

[TenMostWanted]

Ha! No prob. Saw that, my bad for the piling on.
how dare you! :p

[Downthestretch55]

Storm Flag Flying beat Azeri after being softened up on the lead. A few weeks earlier Azeri beat SFF and Sightseek. in the Go For Wand.
DaHoss,
I really detest talking with you.
Maybe you remember better than me.
Race 9, the 57th running of the Personal Ensign Aug 27, 2004
1 1/4 mile 400K purse
1- Storm Flag Flying - John R Velazquez - Claude R. McGaughey
2- Azeri- Pat Day - D Wayne Lucas
3- Nevermore (4lbs over) - Edgar S Prado - H. James Bond
4- Roar Emotion - Jerry D Bailey - Kiaran P McLaughlin
5- Board Elligible - Pablo Fragaso - James W. Ferraro

Who won?

[pba1817]

Doesn't seem like Azeri was the last decent horse Lucas trained?? She really wasn't even his horse anyway...

[philcski]

how dare you! :p

haha because I'm so mean. :p

[hemaih]

Ouija Board is one of the greats

[Danzig]

already? i haven't read thru the thread yet, but i think 'history' rankings are a bit premature. all the other fillies i would think are already done racing, while rags is not. well, hope not!

[SentToStud]

I look at it this way...

If you judged all fillies as of mid-June of their 3 yo years and came up with a list of the best, I'd say that as short as you choose to make that list,... she's on it.

[Cannon Shell]

Ruffian by far was the fastest filly ever to race. And she ran when medication was not as much as a contributor to performance as it is in racing today
That's not exactly true but you can believe it if you want

[Cannon Shell]

She doesn't belong "in history" until her career is history.
Good point

[SentToStud]

Good point

I say not a good point. I think a 3x G1 winning filly who wins the Belmont while getting the toughest trip in the field is enough to be judged favorably through history.

Can you name one filly who accomplished more than she has through this point in their respective 3 yo years?

[Danzig]

I say not a good point. I think a 3x G1 winning filly who wins the Belmont while getting the toughest trip in the field is enough to be judged favorably through history.

Can you name one filly who accomplished more than she has through this point in their respective 3 yo years?

genuine risk
personal ensign


oh, wait, that's two. plenty more tho.

[Cannon Shell]

I say not a good point. I think a 3x G1 winning filly who wins the Belmont while getting the toughest trip in the field is enough to be judged favorably through history.

Can you name one filly who accomplished more than she has through this point in their respective 3 yo years?
Winning Colors?

[Cannon Shell]

genuine risk
personal ensign


oh, wait, that's two. plenty more tho.
Maybe not Personal Ensign

[SentToStud]

genuine risk
personal ensign


oh, wait, that's two. plenty more tho.

Accomplished as much? yes. More? no.

That's my point.

[Danzig]

Maybe not Personal Ensign

i just think she was better at two, and came back from a tough injury.


and yeah, risk accomplished more. won the derby, second in the preakness and belmont.

[Danzig]

Winning Colors?

definitely!

[Cannon Shell]

I say not a good point. I think a 3x G1 winning filly who wins the Belmont while getting the toughest trip in the field is enough to be judged favorably through history.

Can you name one filly who accomplished more than she has through this point in their respective 3 yo years?
Obviously she has a nice little resume but she has to do a lot more for her to be mentioned with many of the all-time greats who we can judge based upon their entire careers.

I know its hard to believe but a 3 time Grade 1 winning filly is not that rare.

[SentToStud]

Winning Colors?Fair enough. I'd say arguably yes. Same with Genuine Risk. But just arguably. Neither beat colts off the trip R2R had.

[Cannon Shell]

Fair enough. I'd say arguably yes. Same with Genuine Risk. But just arguably. Neither beat colts off the trip R2R had.
Winning Colors destroyed colts in ths SA Derby and beat a top group of 3 yo's pretty handily in the Derby. No comparison really.

[SentToStud]

Obviously she has a nice little resume but she has to do a lot more for her to be mentioned with many of the all-time greats who we can judge based upon their entire careers.

I know its hard to believe but a 3 time Grade 1 winning filly is not that rare.Thanks for the lesson. I just learned yesterday they have been running grade 1 races for a while.

[blackthroatedwind]

genuine risk
personal ensign


oh, wait, that's two. plenty more tho.


Personal Ensign probably hadn't started yet as a 3YO at this time. And, she didn't accomplish nearly as much until she was 4.

And I say that as a huge fan.

[somerfrost]

Winning Colors destroyed colts in ths SA Derby and beat a top group of 3 yo's pretty handily in the Derby. No comparison really.


Well, Winning Colors barely held on in the Derby but that was her second grade one win vs colts.

[Cannon Shell]

Thanks for the lesson. I just learned yesterday they have been running grade 1 races for a while.
Well anyone who think RTR has accomplished more at this point in her career than Winning Colors may need a little help.

btw-Winning Colors managed to squeeze in the Santa Anita Oaks too

[blackthroatedwind]

i just think she was better at two, and came back from a tough injury.


and yeah, risk accomplished more. won the derby, second in the preakness and belmont.

Actually while she won the Frizette at 2 in her only meaningful race, though her maiden win was exceptional, she did it in a three horse field against the very average Collins....though she may have injured herself in that race.

[Danzig]

Actually while she won the Frizette at 2 in her only meaningful race, though her maiden win was exceptional, she did it in a three horse field against the very average Collins....though she may have injured herself in that race.

still amazing to think that she came back from an injury of that magnitude, and kept such form! man, she was something.

[Cannon Shell]

Well, Winning Colors barely held on in the Derby but that was her second grade one win vs colts.
I'm pretty sure that Forty Niner was at least as good a quality of horse as was found in 19th century Hungary

[Danzig]

I'm pretty sure that Forty Niner was at least as good a quality of horse as was found in 19th century Hungary


429

[philcski]

I'm pretty sure that Forty Niner was at least as good a quality of horse as was found in 19th century Hungary

Risen Star was fairly average though. I'd take 1/5 on the Hungarian stud.














:D

[somerfrost]

I say not a good point. I think a 3x G1 winning filly who wins the Belmont while getting the toughest trip in the field is enough to be judged favorably through history.

Can you name one filly who accomplished more than she has through this point in their respective 3 yo years?

I know I'll catch hell for this but by this time in her 3yo campaign, Kincsem had won 16 races (16-16 of course) many against the boys while giving them weight...her last win being by 10 lengths at 2 miles.

[SentToStud]

Well anyone who think RTR has accomplished more at this point in her career than Winning Colors may need a little help.

btw-Winning Colors managed to squeeze in the Santa Anita Oaks too

Well, we all can use a little help now and then. Act accordingly.

[somerfrost]

I'm pretty sure that Forty Niner was at least as good a quality of horse as was found in 19th century Hungary


And for the sake of accuracy, Kincsem ran her first 6 races in Germany, by this time she had run in four different countries!

[Cannon Shell]

And for the sake of accuracy, Kincsem ran her first 6 races in Germany, by this time she had run in four different countries!
Do you have any of the pp's ? What about her sheet #'s? LOL I could just go on and on....

[Cannon Shell]

Well, we all can use a little help now and then. Act accordingly.
I thought I was

[Danzig]

Do you have any of the pp's ? What about her sheet #'s? LOL I could just go on and on....

yeah, but they weren't called sheets back then...i think it was called 'skins'....or maybe even papyrus!

[somerfrost]

Do you have any of the pp's ? What about her sheet #'s? LOL I could just go on and on....

http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/biographies/kincsem.htm
As you know, Europe doesn't use DRF type PP's, nor do they rely on sheet #'s because of the differences in surfaces...here is a record of her 54 wins with final margains.

[miraja2]

I look at it this way...

If you judged all fillies as of mid-June of their 3 yo years and came up with a list of the best, I'd say that as short as you choose to make that list,... she's on it.
Using this criteria, Silverbulletday would probably need to be in the discussion as well.
Although perhaps not an all-time great filly, she was extremely accomplished by mid-June of her 3yo campaign. She was a five-time graded stakes winner at 2 (including the BC), and won the Oaks and the Black-Eyed Susans at 3.

[witchdoctor]

I can't believe the name of Miesque has not come up yet. All she did ws win a bunch of Grade 1s in England and France and then came across the pond and beat up on the boys twice in the Breeder's Cup Mile.

[sumitas]

has anyone mentioned that RR is the first horse since Masterman, 1902, to be a 3rd generation Belmont winner.

[TenMostWanted]

I can't believe the name of Miesque has not come up yet. All she did ws win a bunch of Grade 1s in England and France and then came across the pond and beat up on the boys twice in the Breeder's Cup Mile.
TRUE.

she must be mentioned on the top 10.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

While Rags to Riches is the kind of horse who will run all day---and Magnificence is bred to be a sprinter-miler---perhaps we shouldn't forget that Magnificence was actually the consensus "fastest" and "most impressive" 3yo filly to race at the recently concluded Santa Anita meet.

It's VERY pre-mature to start talk about Rags To Riches as a great filly....she's basically just run the same race over and over since her sneaky super maiden win in Jan...and it's only been the continuous stretching out in distance that is making her look like she's improving so much with each start.

Sadly for her...they don't write Graded Stake races at distances any longer than 12 furlongs on dirt. She's not going to get another three furlong stretch out to 15 furlongs....She's finally going to have to cut-back now.

Let's let her prove herself...either by dominating the girls with fast figures, or by beating the colts at 9 and 10 furlongs...before we start talking about her like this.

I mentioned 3yo filly Jolypha, who came over from Europe, and was 3rd in the Breeders Cup Classic behind Ap Indy in her dirt debut. Here's another example of a filly giving a very good account of herself...this is Easy Goer's dam Relaxing running a competitive 3rd behind John Henry in the 1981 Jockey Club Gold Cup at 12 furlongs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSISQou2aBA

[Kasept]

When the conversation is focusing on F&M's facing C/G/H's, there's only one race mare to discus, and that's Gallorette, and the discussion pretty much ends there. There has never been a filly/mare like her or will be. Faced males the majority of her career (72 starts) winning the Met, Whitney, Carter, Vosburgh, Brooklyn and whatever else. Beat Hoop Jr. the year he won the Derby.. Beat Stymie.. Faced Armed and Assault.. Carried highweight repeatedly against males and was rarely out of the money (72/21-20-13, $$445,000). Ranked in the B-H Top 100 at #45, behind only Ruffian (#34).

The greatest Maryland-bred of either sex, ever. A remarkable horse.

http://www.aikenracinghalloffame.com/Gallorette_-_Race_Record.pdf

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o122/kasept/gallorette.jpg

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I've never seen her race...and have no idea how horses from the 40's would stack up against horses from today---but she was an all-time great...that is for sure.

I've seen a lot of fillies who would have been very successful at the right distances against top class colts....they just never had the chance.

I want to say that Surfside locked up an eclipse for champion 3yo filly earlier on this decade, when she had her way with a field of older males in the Grade 2 Clark Handicap.

Jolypha ran one other time on dirt, and was off the board, after her strong 3rd behind AP Indy. She was 0-for-4 in American Stakes and clearly doesn't belong on anyones best filly lists...but she really made a great account of herself when she ran in a race best suited to her style.

[_ed_]

When the conversation is focusing on F&M's facing C/G/H's, there's only one race mare to discus, and that's Gallorette, and the discussion pretty much ends there. There has never been a filly/mare like her or will be. Faced males the majority of her career (72 starts) winning the Met, Whitney, Carter, Vosburgh, Brooklyn and whatever else. Beat Hoop Jr. the year he won the Derby.. Beat Stymie.. Faced Armed and Assault.. Carried highweight repeatedly against males and was rarely out of the money (72/21-20-13, $$445,000). Ranked in the B-H Top 100 at #45, behind only Ruffian (#34).

The greatest Maryland-bred of either sex, ever. A remarkable horse.
She does sound amazing!

I'd like to mention Sunline (48:32-9-3), the winner of 13 G1s and over $10 million in stakes (that's our currency of course, probably about US$6-7 million).

She won the Australian weight-for-age championship race the Cox Plate in 1999 and 2000, beating horses the quality of Tie The Knot (himself a winner of 13 G1s), the Doncaster Handicap over a mile as a 3yo in 1999 and again under an all-time record weight for a mare in 2002, and beat Hong Kong's champion horse of the time in Fairy King Prawn on his own turf in the 2000 Hong Kong Mile.

One of the all-time greatest horses NZ has ever produced, right up with Phar Lap (although I admit he was Australian he was born here), Balmerino, Kindergarten, Mainbrace and some of our other legendary horses. Certainly our greatest ever mare.

RTR has certainly made a fantastic first few steps along the way to greatness though, but she does have a long way to go yet.

[byalip]

R2R...not yet.

But her dam, Better Than Honor, deserves a top spot. Producing back-to-back Belmont winners is a milestone.

As a die-hard Xtra Heat fan, I'd like to at least give a shout out for her accomplishments. She deserves a mention for durability....26 wins in 35 starts. Sure, some of her competition was suspect, but she ran with as much as 127 pounds without missing any time off for injuries.

[parsixfarms]

While I'm not sure how times from last Saturday (it seemed like the track was reasonably glib) would compare to the corresponding race dates, it is interesting to note that the CCA Oaks was contested at a mile and a half twenty five times. RTR's winning time on Saturday was eclipsed by the following six fillies (in reverse chronological order): Valley Victory, Wayward Lass, Revidere, Ruffian (2:27), Chris Evert, and Magazine (also 2:27). There are some real powerhouse names there; I agree with those that say it is premature to judge RTR's place in history.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The track was quite fast....and the final time for the Belmont Stakes would have been much faster had it not been such an incredibly slow paced race.

Cotton Blossom ran over 54 seconds faster, winning the Acorn, which is a half mile shorter, earlier in the card. She'd have needed to pair together a couple of 27 flat quarters to slightly better the Belmont's final time.

That really underlines how the comically slow pace effected the final time...and made the final time slower than it would have been had the race been a turely run race.

[ArlJim78]

The track was quite fast....and the final time for the Belmont Stakes would have been much faster had it not been such an incredibly slow paced race.

Cotton Blossom ran over 54 seconds faster, winning the Acorn, which is a half mile shorter, earlier in the card. She'd have needed to pair together a couple of 27 flat quarters to slightly better the Belmont's final time.

That really underlines how the comically slow pace effected the final time...and made the final time slower than it would have been had the race been a turely run race.
It was reminscent of this years Blue Grass.

[parsixfarms]

If it was a truely run race (6F in 1:12 or so), I doubt Rags to Riches would have won. The fact that the pace was slow gave JR a chance to allow her to settle after her stumble at the break. I suspect that if the pace had been faster, she'd have been playing catch-up from the beginning and likely would have tired from those efforts.

[Indian Charlie]

I've never seen her race...and have no idea how horses from the 40's would stack up against horses from today---but she was an all-time great...that is for sure.

I've seen a lot of fillies who would have been very successful at the right distances against top class colts....they just never had the chance.

I want to say that Surfside locked up an eclipse for champion 3yo filly earlier on this decade, when she had her way with a field of older males in the Grade 2 Clark Handicap.

Jolypha ran one other time on dirt, and was off the board, after her strong 3rd behind AP Indy. She was 0-for-4 in American Stakes and clearly doesn't belong on anyones best filly lists...but she really made a great account of herself when she ran in a race best suited to her style.

well after jolypha retired, frankel said she was one of the three best fillies/mares he ever had in his barn.

[Pedigree Ann]

Ouija Board is one of the greats

She wasn't even the best mare in Europe/GB last year; that was Pride, who beat up on boys instead of retreating to the f/m competition. Ouija Board was best of her generation at 3 in Britain, and lots better than anything we had in the US to put up against her. But one of the greats? I beg to differ.

[packerbacker7964]

I think Spain is another Filly we tend to forget. Wasn't she like the all time money winner when she retired?

[Charismatic1]

She wasn't even the best mare in Europe/GB last year; that was Pride, who beat up on boys instead of retreating to the f/m competition. Ouija Board was best of her generation at 3 in Britain, and lots better than anything we had in the US to put up against her. But one of the greats? I beg to differ.


She ran against the girls twice last year! One of those times was against a damn good Alexander Goldrun. I'd hardly say she was "retreating" considering her competition. Ouija Board was remarkable in what she did her entire career. She ran against the best males and females all over the damn planet and always made her presence felt (save for Dubai). In my opinion, she lost three races last year due to poor rides either waiting too long or moving way too early. Taking nothing away from Pride, but Ouija Board had the better CAREER in my opinion. She is and should be considered an all-timer because of what she did in her entire career and how she bucked the current pathetic trend in horse racing. She was loved by everyone for her incredible ability and her globe trotting durability. Thanks to her connections' willingness to race her whenever and wherever, her legend will live on for ages. Sadly, Pride will be forgotten in five years.

[Charismatic1]

I thought Flute was a spectacular filly. I think there was a lot more potential there.

[blackthroatedwind]

I thought Flute was a spectacular filly. I think there was a lot more potential there.


Spectacular?

She was definitely in the top 500 fillies of the last 25 years.

[Cajungator26]

Spectacular?

She was definitely in the top 500 fillies of the last 25 years.

She just was not that good.

[blackthroatedwind]

She won the KY Oaks and Alabama but she was never that fast and was a no show at the end of the season. Exogenous, who was second to her in the Alabama, had passed her within a month. She was simply a better horse at the time of her unfortunate demise.

[sumitas]

Honest Lady was pretty darn good and fast.

[KirisClown]

Not even a mention of Heavenly Prize...

Heck even Educated Risk would have dusted Flute, Spain, Exogenous etc....

[Indian Charlie]

Spectacular?

She was definitely in the top 500 fillies of the last 25 years.

your capacity for exaggeration is legend.

some 3yos not being mentioned would also include lakeway and sardula, and up to a mile, definitely melair.

hollywood wildcat and dance smartly could both run too.

[pba1817]

The track was quite fast....and the final time for the Belmont Stakes would have been much faster had it not been such an incredibly slow paced race.

I disagree. The pace factor on the final time is pretty much irrelevant when running that far if the pace makers stop, which they did. Only if CP West had held on to win by setting those slow fractions would that angle stand up.

Cotton Blossom ran over 54 seconds faster, winning the Acorn, which is a half mile shorter, earlier in the card. She'd have needed to pair together a couple of 27 flat quarters to slightly better the Belmont's final time. Tough to compare these two... A 1 mile 1 turn race vs a 1.5 mile 2 turn race that is ran over a part of the Belmont surface that is used once a year...

That really underlines how the comically slow pace effected the final time...and made the final time slower than it would have been had the race been a turely run race.
It was truly ran, CP West was getting away with a pedestrian pace and he caved in, so did Hard Spun. Obviously they would have stopped even worse if they were running faster on the front end, but this still doesn't change the fact that Curlin and Rags ran a slow race themselves, until the final quarter. Let me put it to you this way, if the front end speed was 1:12 and the mile was 1:37, Rags to Riches and Curlin would have been 15 lengths back early and then would have appeared to close like freight trains running their final quarters below 24.

[Indian Charlie]

I disagree. The pace factor on the final time is pretty much irrelevant when running that far if the pace makers stop, which they did. Only if CP West had held on to win by setting those slow fractions would that angle stand up.

Tough to compare these two... A 1 mile 1 turn race vs a 1.5 mile 2 turn race that is ran over a part of the Belmont surface that is used once a year...


It was truly ran, CP West was getting away with a pedestrian pace and he caved in, so did Hard Spun. Obviously they would have stopped even worse if they were running faster on the front end, but this still doesn't change the fact that Curlin and Rags ran a slow race themselves, until the final quarter. Let me put it to you this way, if the front end speed was 1:12 and the mile was 1:37, Rags to Riches and Curlin would have been 15 lengths back early and then would have appeared to close like freight trains running their final quarters below 24.

woah.