Would you rather win a Kentucky Derby of BC Classic?

[Hoisttheflag]

If you owned, trained or rode horses, would you rather win a BC Classic or a Kentucky Derby?

[1st_Saturday_in_May]

Derby. Far more prestigious event

[oracle80]

Last time I checked classic winners received much more money. Ask any jock or trainer if he wants 10% of 1.2 mill or 10% of 2,4 mill. You cant send your kids to college with trophies, you send em with cash.

[Hoisttheflag]

Last time I checked classic winners received much more money. Ask any jock or trainer if he wants 10% of 1.2 mill or 10% of 2,4 mill. You cant send your kids to college with trophies, you send em with cash.

At that level it isn't about money. 99% of people would rather win the derby. What is the name of this site? Breederscuptrail?

[randallscott35]

Derby. If I owned horses, odds are I'd have plenty of money. The Derby is a unique thing, kind of a one shot deal for 3 yr olds. Just getting them in the gate is a thrill. I wish I had this problem, choosing between these 2.

[oracle80]

Derby. If I owned horses, odds are I'd have plenty of money. The Derby is a unique thing, kind of a one shot deal for 3 yr olds. Just getting them in the gate is a thrill. I wish I had this problem, choosing between these 2.
Thats the thing, you think these gusy ride r train for ego, they do it for money!!!!!!! Ask em!!!

[randallscott35]

Sure, but the question isn't geared towards jockeys, its towards owners.

[oracle80]

Sure, but the question isn't geared towards jockeys, its towards owners.
The original question dealt with trainers Randy. I'm telling ya, they would take the cash.

[randallscott35]

Frankel would've rather won the Derby with Aptitude than the BC Classic with Aptitude(had he not bounced that day).

[oracle80]

Frankel would've rather won the Derby with Aptitude than the BC Classic with Aptitude(had he not bounced that day).

Mayeb Frankel would, but if you asked Mandella or Dutrow if they would trade their BC wins for a Derby win, they would say no way.

[1st_Saturday_in_May]

The original question dealt with trainers Randy. I'm telling ya, they would take the cash.
Good point with trainers and jockeys with it being about the money. People kept saying how Servis, Ritchey, etc. would get such better horses because of Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex but that has yet to be seen I guess - lot more money in winning the BCC - 5 mil vs. 2 mil. I was thinking from the owners p.o.v. where I would much rather win the Derby

[oracle80]

Good point with trainers and jockeys with it being about the money. People kept saying how Servis, Ritchey, etc. would get such better horses because of Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex but that has yet to be seen I guess - lot more money in winning the BCC - 5 mil vs. 2 mil. I was thinking from the owners p.o.v. where I would much rather win the Derby
As an owner its a no brainer, gotat say the Derby.
But Flag is trying to be clever and change our original argument from th other thread where we were STRICTLY talking about trainers!!!! he thinks hes dealing with a C student here.
YOu ask any trainer if he would rather win a 5 million dollar race or a 2 million dollar race and they are gonna tell you that they want the 5 mill. They make 300 grand for winning one of those. For two mill they make 120 grand. You really think there is a trainer who doesnt wanna make 300 gradn more than 20 grand? Give me a break.

[PeteMugg]

What do these wins mean when it comes to breeding money? And how do other finishers of these races do when it comes to the breeding shed?

[oracle80]

Good point with trainers and jockeys with it being about the money. People kept saying how Servis, Ritchey, etc. would get such better horses because of Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex but that has yet to be seen I guess - lot more money in winning the BCC - 5 mil vs. 2 mil. I was thinking from the owners p.o.v. where I would much rather win the Derby
Servis just lost his main client, pretty much proving your point.
Believe me, these guys know the game is about money. Its only moronic fans who think they care more about a trophy than a lotta cash. Nice to have both of course, but in the end, they are no different than anyone else, working each day trying to make as much cash as possible.

[oracle80]

What do these wins mean when it comes to breeding money? And how do other finishers of these races do when it comes to the breeding shed?
Glad you asked pete. Smarty and Fupeg cashed in nicely, but Giacomo and others havent.
BC winners have been more consistently syndicated for more cash. And look atthe stud fees!!!!!!
ST Liam just went for over 15 mill.
Zapper forget about it, look at his stud fee!!!!
Volponi didnt break any banks but Pleasantly perfect went just fine!!!
Tiznow got a great buck and sired a champ in his first crop.
Giants Causeway was a runnerup but it didnt hurt him any either!!!
Cigar went for a fortune befor being discovered unfertile. I think you get the point.

[Hoisttheflag]

What do these wins mean when it comes to breeding money? And how do other finishers of these races do when it comes to the breeding shed?

Derby winners almost always start at a higher stud fee.

[randallscott35]

You know what this really means, that Churchill Downs has been cheap about the Derby purse. It should be a minimum of 4 million dollars. Think about it, there is no reason it shouldn't be. They only raised it a few years ago. Awful on their part.

[Hoisttheflag]

Glad you asked pete. Smarty and Fupeg cashed in nicely, but Giacomo and others havent.
BC winners have been more consistently syndicated for more cash. And look atthe stud fees!!!!!!
ST Liam just went for over 15 mill.
Zapper forget about it, look at his stud fee!!!!
Volponi didnt break any banks but Pleasantly perfect went just fine!!!
Tiznow got a great buck and sired a champ in his first crop.
Giants Causeway was a runnerup but it didnt hurt him any either!!!
Cigar went for a fortune befor being discovered unfertile. I think you get the point.


This is incorrect. Derby winners on average have a much higher stud fee than BC Classic winners. I will let you do the work and post the last 20, because you are wrong on this one.

[oracle80]

Derby winners almost always start at a higher stud fee.
Ok, you have lost all credibility. Giacomo is gonna start higher than Zapper and ST liam? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oracle80]

This is incorrect. Derby winners on average have a much higher stud fee than BC Classic winners. I will let you do the work and post the last 20, because you are wrong on this one.

Higher start or higher fee with a five year average? You cant only count starting fee, its waht they generate total!!!

[Hoisttheflag]

Higher start or higher fee with a five year average? You cant only count starting fee, its waht they generate total!!!

Either. The KD winners are just bigger money makers. However, the data is off because a horse like Seattle Slew likely would have won the BC Classic if it existed. However, farms value derby winners more than Classic winners for marketing reasons alone.

[oracle80]

Either. The KD winners are just bigger money makers. However, the data is off because a horse like Seattle Slew likely would have won the BC Classic if it existed. However, farms value derby winners more than Classic winners for marketing reasons alone.
yeah ole Giacomo oughta stand for at least 10 grand(and will never fill his book at that price)

[Hoisttheflag]

yeah ole Giacomo oughta stand for at least 10 grand(and will never fill his book at that price)

Just like Cat Thief. The fact is that it is impossible to compare the two because the big money makers from the KD didn't run in the BC Classic. With horses like AP Indy and GZ the numbers may one day equal out, but Barbaro is likely to start at near $200,000 on a small book next year, if he can breed. I have actually heard it may go as high as $500K to start because of the demand right now and the possibility of only openings for 50 mares.

[Byebyemermaid]

When it comes to trainers and jockeys it's about the money.But if your talking about owners like the Maktoums(wrong spelling i'm sure)or the late Bob Lewis and farms like Claiborne and others the money becomes secondary,and then it's about prestige.Do you think any of these Arab owners really need the money.Let's get real,what they make in horse racing is chump change to them.

[Samarta]

I have asked that very question to a Derby winning trainer prior to winning the Derby and the answer was hands down the Derby. Most prestigous race in the world and it's one that changes lives forever....As far as owners go, once you get to that level what's 2 mil???

[packerbacker7964]

All of the high dollar Stud Horses going now did nothing in the Derby. The high dollar fees are who right now? How many of them are Derby winners? I know that there are less Derby winners than the rest of them but hey it's going to happen that way. I'll go against the last 15 Derby winner 's with the last 15 BC Classic winners all day long. And if Cigar wasn't shooting blanks I'd be the winner in a landslide. Two geldings in the last how many Derby's? I wonder how many BC Classic winners were Geldings? I'm too lazy to look. H ah aha ha ahaaha aha

[Scav]

Arlington Million for me

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

How bout yesterday's race; the Met Mile. Very good milers on the track are the breeding future.

[oracle80]

How bout yesterday's race; the Met Mile. Very good milers on the track are the breeding future.

Great Point, talk about a sire making race!!!!

[Hoisttheflag]

How bout yesterday's race; the Met Mile. Very good milers on the track are the breeding future.

The myth that great milers make great sires is just that, a myth. Who are the great sires that were milers?

[oracle80]

The myth that great milers make great sires is just that, a myth. Who are the great sires that were milers?
Umm well Dr Fager, Fappiano, Storm cat was most effective at that distance, ummmm that alone should give you a pretty good start!!!!

[oracle80]

Oh don't forget Distorted Humor, my current favorite sire, the way he steps up his mares is just incredible.

[oracle80]

But ah hell, we are graced with a guy who knows more about breeding than John Nerud, who has always said that. How lucky we are to have you in our midst!!!!

[Scav]

From the ones I can see

Fappiano
Fit to Fight
Gulch(x2)
In Excess
Honour and Glory
Langfuhr
Cox's Ridge

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

I believe Danzig was in his very short career, also more recently Gulch, but some may say he isn't great yet. The future wave of great sire will probably be milers.

[Hoisttheflag]

Umm well Dr Fager, Fappiano, Storm cat was most effective at that distance, ummmm that alone should give you a pretty good start!!!!

As for Dr. Fager, he owned track records at 9F and 10F, in fact many consider when he beat In Reality at 10F, the best race of his career.

Storm Cat wasn't a miler. He really wasn't anything.

Don't know enough about Fappiano, but can't remember more than one or two good Fappianos.


If those are the only three you can come up with, I think I made my point.

[Hoisttheflag]

But ah hell, we are graced with a guy who knows more about breeding than John Nerud, who has always said that. How lucky we are to have you in our midst!!!!


I can assure you I know more about breeding than you do. Dr. Fager a miler? That is hilarious. I guess Secretariat was a miler too. LOL

[Scav]

Here comes our first brawl

[Hoisttheflag]

From the ones I can see

Fappiano
Fit to Fight
Gulch(x2)
In Excess
Honour and Glory
Langfuhr
Cox's Ridge


not much there if you ask me.

[Scav]

In Excess and Honour and Glory are SOLID SOLID producers, both get at least 1 Grade 1 winner a year (this is not a fact, assumed but a solid assumption)

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Again, the horses that excel the flat mile route, will be the ones people go to in the breeding shed for the future. You heard it here first!

[Hoisttheflag]

I believe Danzig was in his very short career, also more recently Gulch, but some may say he isn't great yet. The future wave of great sire will probably be milers.


The future wave will contain very few milers. It will be all classic distance horses.

Smarty Jones, FuPeg, GZ, Giants Causeway, are the 4 horses that will dominate the next decade.

My sleeper who we invested in heavily this year is Grand Slam, who I believe will become one of the elites in the next few years.

[Hoisttheflag]

Again, the horses that excel the flat mile route, will be the ones people go to in the breeding shed for the future. You heard it here first!


Like who, Yankee Victor? Name the horses that excel at a mile over the last 5 years that will be great sires. GZ is not a miler either. Never was.

[packerbacker7964]

Can't remember if he's still alive but Our Emblem and not to forget War Chant. Both great sires of turf and dirt.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I would much rather win on Breeder's Cup day. I love that day. It is the best betting day of the year!

[Hoisttheflag]

Here comes our first brawl

I would never argue handicapping, but when it comes to pedigrees and breeding I know my stuff. Have to or I would be out of a job.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Both Smarty and FuPeg were out of very good milers. Grand Slam wasn't a bad one himself, but didn't win over a mile an a eighth did he?

[Hoisttheflag]

In Excess and Honour and Glory are SOLID SOLID producers, both get at least 1 Grade 1 winner a year (this is not a fact, assumed but a solid assumption)

In Excess and H&G have produced very little. H&G is a $12,500 sire and always will be.

[Hoisttheflag]

Both Smarty and FuPeg were out of very good milers. Grand Slam wasn't a bad one himself, but didn't win over a mile an a eighth did he?

Smarty and FuPeg are not milers. EQ was actually a sprinter with 6-7F his best distance. I know that you aren't calling Mr. Prospector a miler. He was an incredible sprinter, especially at 6F.

As for Grand Slam, the Peter Pan (9f) was the longest he went and won.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

But, will that one win going this distance make him a "classic" distance sire?

[Hoisttheflag]

Can't remember if he's still alive but Our Emblem and not to forget War Chant. Both great sires of turf and dirt.

Our Emblem might have an affect on Brazilian racing but not American. War Chant is too young to evaluate but I am not thrilled with him unless you are a Danzig guy. 60K is too much for what he is producing. I guess Brilliant isn't too shabby, but nothing else really impresses me.

[Hoisttheflag]

But, will that one win going this distance make him a "classic" distance sire?

He really isn't in that elite category like the Classic Winners. Cafe Olympus and Strong Hope were two big runners though so we think he is a great value.

[Lbigdog77]

I would guess that 90% (or more) of owners would rather win the KY Derby than the BCC. Could be a good concept for the "Deal or No Deal" franchise! :)

Trainers and jockeys want to win the races with the biggest purses (as well they should).

Lansdon